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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 07-29-2013, 09:44 PM   #43
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Would be great to know what makes DI's 1/2/3 different, and if the DI seal failures are specific to 1, 2, or 3. Anyone know?
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:04 PM   #44
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There is no way to tell what's number injectors you have without pulling them? It's not vin specific? Did you ask Toyota about that?

Very nice video btw. Very informative.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:23 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRZnut View Post
Would be great to know what makes DI's 1/2/3 different, and if the DI seal failures are specific to 1, 2, or 3. Anyone know?
I'm especially interested in the second part of this question.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:52 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laika View Post
Just now watching the video. Very informative. I expected this to be quite in depth but this is a step or two higher than what I expected.

"according to the manual, you don't want to fuck this step up". I couldn't stop laughing at this for some reason. People should watch this for at least for entertainment value even if they never plan to replace the seals themselves.

Edit: Just finished, I never even considered an improper installation from the factory. Obviously this must be an automated process which would lead one to wonder what percentage of direct injectors are built/sealed correctly.

Also, as for the bevel, my instinct would tell me that a bevel that is made with small tolerances with respect to the seal, would be beneficial in keeping the seal in place, no? The video contradicts this and I'm sure my thinking is likely to be wrong since I don't know the second thing about DI and I only play an engineer on tv.
It's all a guess, we don't have access to engineering with this car to get straight answers. But as said in the video, these injectors are different in design from other DI out there. They must have beveled the edge assuming it was better for the seal to move up instead of blowing into a fixed edge.

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Originally Posted by track_warrior View Post


Injector #3 this time last time it was #2 that caused the engine to die. Im guessing the seals were worn and since they did not replace them last time they finally failed. I got the code during a WOT for merging on to a highway from 4000-5000 rpms but really no symptoms other than a misfire and air & fuel ratio imbalance code, my new engine is not even broken in how sad.
Id you actually had a failed seal and burned injector, replacing all seals and failed injectors would make sense. The cylinder with the failed injector should also have the plug and coil replaced. When the seal fails fuel spray or sratification could easily change and ruin plug. The increased heat/misfire would also destroy the plug and heat up the coil.

If they they did not completely address all of this then chances are that's why you had the second failure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
First of all, thanks for taking the time to do this.

Were you experiencing DI issues and decided to replace the injectors, or was this just something you wanted to do?
I had a loud pop sound under engine load and some very odd hesitation when the engine was running on DI injectors only.

Given the fact I am running FI, and no one has done any video or threads on pulling them it was dual purpose for me along with learning more about the car.

In the end I think it was spark advance or issues with the Perrin tune that may have caused the backfire sound in the intake not the seals.

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Originally Posted by BRZnut View Post
Would be great to know what makes DI's 1/2/3 different, and if the DI seal failures are specific to 1, 2, or 3. Anyone know?
Each number represents a different stratified flow. Which means the way the injector sprays fuel into a layered mist. It is extraordinarily complicated. Since the plugs sit right next to the injector tip the fuel mist when ignited must swirl in a specific way as to avoid damage to the plugs.

The only way to test the difference is to buy all three and send them to a lab or use a machine like this to test flow difference.

Like in this test at 5 Minutes:

And



The differences I suspect are associate with the block casting. Variations in cylinder, injector ports and even possibly the variance in plug angle may dictate the need for differently designed injectors spray patterns.

Hence 1, 2 and 3.

Alternate reasons could be DI ECU differences, which would require different injectors. That is a stretch though.




Quote:
Originally Posted by brillo View Post
There is no way to tell what's number injectors you have without pulling them? It's not vin specific? Did you ask Toyota about that?

Very nice video btw. Very informative.
I asked 3 different dealers, they all said the same thing, pull them.
On a out of warranty or private shop situation this will be the only solution anyway.

Again this is what blows about cars like this. Japanese companies are absolutely secretive about this type of information and even more secretive about not disclosing problems. Which is why there will always be a silent roll out one day of a revised part or TSB.

I will never get a phone call answering my questions, and there will never be a corporate presence on these forums.
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:37 PM   #47
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You sure the number on the injectors doesn't correlate to the diameter or length of the injector. As it is entirely possible that would be necessary to account for manufacturing variances from machining the heads.
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:49 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ozzman View Post
You sure the number on the injectors doesn't correlate to the diameter or length of the injector. As it is entirely possible that would be necessary to account for manufacturing variances from machining the heads.
Considering the actual number is referenced as the "Stratified Flow" number in the service manual I am fairly confident it has to do with spray pattern.

But, the length is also a possibility. Am I going to go dump $750 to test them? Not a chance.

If any dealer or shop wants to donate them for testing, that would be great, but I'd probably have a better chance at falling out of bed and breaking a leg.
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:39 AM   #49
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Looked at all my DI's today,...all seals intact with no damage, the seals do move up and down with a tiny bit of carbon build up.....not sure if that's good or bad,...they came out of my engine that has seen boost up to the 20psi range on E85 and extensively tuned.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:40 AM   #50
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I'm being told the numbers on the injectors are basically just flow matching and set to another calibration in the DI ECU.

We keep seeing posts like track warriors where the seal pops and the engine just blows up. I know most here aren't worried about what happens after 60k miles, but some of us bought new so we could give proper maintenance and make the car last a lifetime. There have been many engines lost to this problem, but the owners are quiet on this forum for fear of what happened to CSGMike.

It is unbelievable that there has been no official response to the issue. Your video has an error, there is no TSB in South Africa, just internet rumors. You should edit this. Even heard claims that the new calibration file was made and distributed by an EcuTek tech, nothing to do with Toyota.

This is not a minor issue or new platform quirk, this is a catastrophic engine failure mode.

The issue is one of four:
1. Poor assembly at Subaru
2. Heads too hot
3. Detonation from poor factory tune
4. Heads not machined properly for DI injector

The fact that there is no TSB after a year would have one suspect #1 and the OEM's will just deal with R&R. But the fact that CSGMike went thru two engines with the same problem point to #2 or #3.

Fact is that tuners are reporting zero knock index logs with Vortech and Turbo tunes means the boost allows them to retard ignition enough to avoid detonation completely . Tuners are reporting that they can reduce knock 50% without FI but going further drops power. So the boost is helping to create a safer tune with the extra power reserve.

So it may be that boosted engines like yours with a conservative tune are probably in the safest spot.

What really drives this home is Subaru turboed the FA20 in Japan with their own DI in less than a year of introduction of the D4-S FA20 (for the Japanese Legacy.)
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by regal View Post

It is unbelievable that there has been no official response to the issue. Your video has an error, there is no TSB in South Africa, just internet rumors. You should edit this. Even heard claims that the new calibration file was made and distributed by an EcuTek tech, nothing to do with Toyota.


O R L Y???

What is this I see below? (See below)

Also, the rumors about tuners distributing the update, is that tuners have gotten a hold of the TSB calibration and made the changes in their tunes.

and you will find....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSUTRA View Post
Hey guys!

Just had my update done few days ago at Toyota Gezina, Pretoria.

I managed to convince the service manager to let me have a few pics including:

1. The before upgrade
2. After upgrade
3. The actual update bulletin and the instructions from TSA :-D

Am sure this makes life easier...print, or email to your dealership, then, praise me :-P











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Old 07-30-2013, 10:01 AM   #52
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If the numbers correspond to the DI ECU then prehaps pulling the DI ECU can tell you which injectors you have? Is their different DI ECU hardware or is it just different DI ECU "calibrations" i.e. flashes?
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:20 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post
We keep seeing posts like track warriors where the seal pops and the engine just blows up. I know most here aren't worried about what happens after 60k miles, but some of us bought new so we could give proper maintenance and make the car last a lifetime. There have been many engines lost to this problem, but the owners are quiet on this forum for fear of what happened to CSGMike.

It is unbelievable that there has been no official response to the issue. Your video has an error, there is no TSB in South Africa, just internet rumors. You should edit this. Even heard claims that the new calibration file was made and distributed by an EcuTek tech, nothing to do with Toyota.

This is not a minor issue or new platform quirk, this is a catastrophic engine failure mode.

The issue is one of four:
1. Poor assembly at Subaru
2. Heads too hot
3. Detonation from poor factory tune
4. Heads not machined properly for DI injector

The fact that there is no TSB after a year would have one suspect #1 and the OEM's will just deal with R&R. But the fact that CSGMike went thru two engines with the same problem point to #2 or #3.

Fact is that tuners are reporting zero knock index logs with Vortech and Turbo tunes means the boost allows them to retard ignition enough to avoid detonation completely . Tuners are reporting that they can reduce knock 50% without FI but going further drops power. So the boost is helping to create a safer tune with the extra power reserve.

So it may be that boosted engines like yours with a conservative tune are probably in the safest spot.

What really drives this home is Subaru turboed the FA20 in Japan with their own DI in less than a year of introduction of the D4-S FA20 (for the Japanese Legacy.)
For your suspected causes, I would think there is very good chance it is combo of those things as well as the obvious fact of the above 5200 RPM non-existence of adjustments which should be in place which are not. And agree it is most likely #2 & #3.

Besides the obvious of everyday temps where people live (heat contributor), another potential contributor not getting much attention which would possibly contribute to #3 - of the people with engine problems, who runs below 94/93 octane fuel? I'm guessing CSGMike runs 91 since he is in Cali. I know he said he had race gas in when one of his issues occurred, but this was after he admittedly already had popping/detonation issues which began when he was on 91 Cali octane (assumption by me). So for people with problems curious what fuel they normally run for DD and track days.

For the part about the FI tuning and better control of ignition, that makes no sense to me. Ignition control should be same on NA or FI setup. Which tuners are saying this? Or were you saying that when they go further with ignition retardation it drops power a bit, but they have same level of control. That would make sense. And I would sacrifice a bit of power for a safe tune every time. So no worries for me if I'm NA and they need to sacrifice 5-10 whp for zero detonation. That should just be an expectation.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:20 AM   #54
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Thanks so much Dezoris (you don't look like a Dezoris) for another great video. Always have enjoyed your stuff. I think you echoed here what I have been feeling the whole time on this issue:
Quote:
SHOULD PEOPLE WORRY?

I think after removing and replacing them, one thing is clear and please use the illustration below. If the seal has failed, symptoms will appear and persist. It's not something that will come and go. Rough idle and popping from the intake won't just magically disappear if the seal is gone. Misfires will also be common, and you may get a CEL or rough idle but no popping.

If you have the issue, you will know and take care if it right away.
If you have some idle drop, a pop once you never hear again. It's likely not the seals.

Its totally possible a failing seal will cause some random issues, however they will get worse and more prevalent until seal disintegrates.

If you are running a stock car under warranty, drive it like normal, and don't worry until symptoms are frequent (AKA Almost every drive).

If you go and pound the hell out of the car and up and down the rev band, and don't have any strange pops or misfires, chances are you are totally fine. Again, its something that would show itself with symptoms.
I feel the same way. I simply am not going to worry until there is an issue and then I will get it addressed one way or the other. The work you did on this was informative and it is nice to see that people still put their money where their mouth is vs just being an internet mechanic...
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Old 07-30-2013, 01:17 PM   #55
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I updated the 3rd post describing a way to potentially see the stratified indexing number on the injector without removal. Pain in the ass but possible.
(Thanks Deep Throat)
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Old 07-30-2013, 01:30 PM   #56
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I updated the 3rd post describing a way to potentially see the stratified indexing number on the injector without removal. Pain in the ass but possible.
(Thanks Deep Throat)
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