Supercharger Comparison: Innovate, Jackson, Kraftwerks, Vortech *Updated March 9 2014

[brianhj]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

And that's where I spend most of my time too - but the nature of this engine is to rev and I do that anyway. See what I'm saying? If you shift at 3-4K yeah the Innovate might seem like a huge difference to you...and I DO shift at 3-4K when I'm just minding my own business, but all that lost top-end makes me sad. Shoot, on the highway in 6th I'm already almost at the point where the Innovate's advantage ends and if we talk about downshifting to 5th then the advantage is absolutely gone at freeway speeds. Lots of lower speed cornering and stuff, I could understand where the Innovate might be better. Look at this way: 50hp on side of the line versus 30 to 15ish on the other side.

I just don't see the low-end gain *possible* on the Innovate as an equal trade off for the power you're losing on the top-end in my opinion. The area under the graph wtq chart reflects this too.

If I'm not redlining it at every stop sign does any of what your saying apply to me? Honest question

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by brianhj

If I'm not redlining it at every stop sign does any of what your saying apply to me? Honest question

Probably not, but your statement's slight exaggeration. It's important HOW the car drives and what YOU like. I will tell you off the bat that the Innovate I got a ride in (non-intercooled) made less power than the Vortech I got a ride in, but if FELT faster.

How much time do you spend over 4k? The price point of the Innovate IC kit doesn't do it for me either TBH. A little expensive for what it is, but I have yet to see what it can do with a real tune compared to these other kits with a real tune *by the same tuner in similar atmospheric conditions*.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by brianhj

If I'm not redlining it at every stop sign does any of what your saying apply to me? Honest question

Do you floor it but not redline at every light?

These dynos only reflect the power available when you go WOT.

Fact of the matter is, EVERY kit will improve low end throttle response, because EVERY kit is making boost, even at idle. Unless you're going WOT from a low speed at low RPM, there won't be a large difference; they ALL make the car substantially more responsive at low speeds and low RPMs.

[shaunsweeney]

The innovate with a smaller pulley and intercooler is exactly what I'm looking for power wise. I HATE peaky powerbands. That absolutely sucks in DD cars. The only time narrow power windows work is a known track environment and even then I'm not a fan.

The reason I never went big turbo on my SRT4 are the same as noted above. That car was way more fun with a maxed out stock turbo IMHO. Different strokes though.

[TemeCal]

Interesting to note, the Innovate car running 91octane and a CARB tune, was the fastest 86 at the FR Shootout. It beat out Kraftwerks car with 100+ more hp. I realize you were driving Ted's car and have much more details. My point being, the Innovate kit isn't necessarily a dog or slouch on the track. I keep hearing how the JR/KW kits are ideal for the track where you need that high RPM HP/TQ, but the Innovate car seemed to hold its own.

http://www.importtuner.com/features/...river_profile/

...btw, I've always been jealous of Ted's ( @ImperiousRex ) car. Great guy, and an incredible car.

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Probably not, but your statement's slight exaggeration. It's important HOW the car drives and what YOU like. I will tell you off the bat that the Innovate I got a ride in (non-intercooled) made less power than the Vortech I got a ride in, but if FELT faster.

How much time do you spend over 4k? The price point of the Innovate IC kit doesn't do it for me either TBH. A little expensive for what it is, but I have yet to see what it can do with a real tune compared to these other kits with a real tune *by the same tuner in similar atmospheric conditions*.

I will have a real tune soon for comparison. Have you been in an Innovate car?

also, the non IC dyno graph on the Innovate is old. In the beginning, the graphs worried me a lot, but a lot of that bumpy crap was ironed out. But, that may be Innovates official graph so it may not matter, but aftermarket tuner wise they aren't looking like that anymore.

[brianhj]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Do you floor it but not redline at every light?

These dynos only reflect the power available when you go WOT.

Fact of the matter is, EVERY kit will improve low end throttle response, because EVERY kit is making boost, even at idle. Unless you're going WOT from a low speed at low RPM, there won't be a large difference; they ALL make the car substantially more responsive at low speeds and low RPMs.

Thanks Mike!

[Sellout]

Originally Posted by TemeCal

Interesting to note, the Innovate car running 91octane and a CARB tune, was the fastest 86 at the FR Shootout. It beat out Kraftwerks car with 100+ more hp. I realize you were driving Ted's car and have much more details. My point being, the Innovate kit isn't necessarily a dog or slouch on the track. I keep hearing how the JR/KW kits are ideal for the track where you need that high RPM HP/TQ, but the Innovate car seemed to hold its own.

http://www.importtuner.com/features/...river_profile/

...btw, I've always been jealous of Ted's ( @ImperiousRex ) car. Great guy, and an incredible car.

Even more interesting. Over and over again, in this thread and others, the CARB innovate tune is being compared to custom tunes for the centrifugals. Everyone wants to ignore the fact that the centrifugal CARB kits don't make any more power than the Intercooled Innovate CARB tune. Disingenuous at best, IMO. These kits ALL make ~245 RWHP Dynojet on their CARB tunes.

And then we compare an early non intercooled Innovate dyno to the CARB tune for the JR kit? Well played.

[shaunsweeney]

I hate to say it but CSG has been very one sided since the JR kit has come out and it makes me very suspicious. I have seen nothing to make me think it is so far superior to even the KW kit let alone any of the others.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by TemeCal

Interesting to note, the Innovate car running 91octane and a CARB tune, was the fastest 86 at the FR Shootout. It beat out Kraftwerks car with 100+ more hp. I realize you were driving Ted's car and have much more details. My point being, the Innovate kit isn't necessarily a dog or slouch on the track. I keep hearing how the JR/KW kits are ideal for the track where you need that high RPM HP/TQ, but the Innovate car seemed to hold its own.

http://www.importtuner.com/features/...river_profile/

...btw, I've always been jealous of Ted's ( @ImperiousRex ) car. Great guy, and an incredible car.

Not bad considering Jeff Westphal is Grand Am Champion. Also, the Innovate FRS has far, far more prep than Ted's car. However, I'm 100% confident I can go faster now that I've had some more seat time in the car

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I will have a real tune soon for comparison. Have you been in an Innovate car?

also, the non IC dyno graph on the Innovate is old. In the beginning, the graphs worried me a lot, but a lot of that bumpy crap was ironed out. But, that may be Innovates official graph so it may not matter, but aftermarket tuner wise they aren't looking like that anymore.

Per our discussion elsewhere, I have ridden in a non intercooled car.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by shaunsweeney

I hate to say it but CSG has been very one sided since the JR kit has come out and it makes me very suspicious. I have seen nothing to make me think it is so far superior to even the KW kit let alone any of the others.

I didn't make these graphs.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ft86/comment...rcharger_dyno/

http://www.reddit.com/user/tendogy

However, I can just exit all FI discussions, if you think that would be better for the masses. Everything I've posted myself is just data. Interpret as you will.

Also, I also urge you to read my signature, because I don't think you have.

[shaunsweeney]

No no Mike don't take it that way. We all value your opinion. I am merely pointing out how much you have talked up the JR kit, but I am not seeing it. I will be watching for your build and impressions on the track though. I am sure there is a reason you are so excited about the kit, but I for some reason am not seeing it yet. Then again I am a noob to SC and am a turbo guy, so that's not too surprising.

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by shaunsweeney

No no Mike don't take it that way. We all value your opinion. I am merely pointing out how much you have talked up the JR kit, but I am not seeing it. I will be watching for your build and impressions on the track though. I am sure there is a reason you are so excited about the kit, but I for some reason am not seeing it yet. Then again I am a noob to SC and am a turbo guy, so that's not too surprising.

The beauty of the JR kit is in the details.

Price: low and competitive

Power delivery: smooth, linear and predictable. Perfect for the track.

Simplicity/fitment: Excellent.

**Intake air temperatures when tracked**: relatively low, the SC doesn't heat soak like the non-intercooled Innovate and completely overwhelm the stock cooling system like a turbo does after a few hard laps.

CARB legality: JR is the only Rotrex kit so far with this status.