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Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum The place to start for the Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 | GT86


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Old 01-31-2012, 10:48 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Everyday in my WRX. Why bother having a car like that if I'm not gonna experience the engine?
There are a few places in my town where there are turns with steep uphills right after where I will do WOT through third gear. There is also a cloverleaf on ramp on my way to work where the highway you are entering is usually pretty empty so I will do 3-4-5 runs there sometimes. Other than that there really aren't any places I can WOT without it being stupidly dangerous, and that's with only 250hp. If I had a more powerful car I would still drive it fast in the same spots, but it would just be over a lot faster. I have a lot more fun driving fast on twisty roads where I can plant myself into the sides of my seat instead of the back and not worry about having an off at 100mph.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:28 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by mines13 View Post
"It's been my experience that straight-line acceleration is probably the first aspect of automotive performance that any intelligent driver gets bored with." -Peter Gregg
Now for a little fun...
"it will never have enough power until I can spin the wheels at the end of the straightaway in high gear." -Mark Donohue

As his response to the Porsche engineers asking if the 917-30's had enough power...which they made between 1100-1500bhp...

Opinions are like an ass, everyone has one


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Originally Posted by catharsis View Post
Balance, under powered cars are not balanced. The frs/brz is not balanced. Basically I fear that this car would lose to nearly all its competition in a track enviroment just because of its low power output. Straights matter on a track guys. And in autocross a lot depends on its classing it could be a non contender.
I'll agree that I don't think 200hp will push the car down the track or auto-x course to my desire but it doesn't mean the 2700+lb car won't be fun.

I also find it funny at the guys talking about handling turned handling into a straight line stability situation
I wouldn't consider this a problem until you actually have enough power to cause serious weight transfer at speed...i.e. breaking all 4 tires free when grabbing 4th gear at 110+...then again perhaps I'm someone who loves the corners but equally likes trying to tame a wild beast from one corner to the next.

As for the F1 excuse for power being because they make large downforce and so they make power to overcome the drag...yes, they make massive drag, however if they made that power to simply overcome downforce, why wouldn't they be running full downforce all the time?
OH YEAH, because at some tracks, outright acceleration = faster lap times over 'handling' in the corners. It's racing, not a for fun HPDE.

^^^Give the dumbed down version without making an example and working out all the long hand numbers and lap simulation...

Now back to a road car, since that's ultimately what we're talking about, I think it'll still be slow for passing or for full throttle late apexing of interstate entrance ramps...but it'll be a lot of fun before that

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 02-01-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:08 AM   #297
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:36 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceywilly View Post
There are a few places in my town where there are turns with steep uphills right after where I will do WOT through third gear. There is also a cloverleaf on ramp on my way to work where the highway you are entering is usually pretty empty so I will do 3-4-5 runs there sometimes. Other than that there really aren't any places I can WOT without it being stupidly dangerous, and that's with only 250hp. If I had a more powerful car I would still drive it fast in the same spots, but it would just be over a lot faster. I have a lot more fun driving fast on twisty roads where I can plant myself into the sides of my seat instead of the back and not worry about having an off at 100mph.
On-ramps are my favorite. Twisty corners at WOT doesn't mean I'm going 100mph... transient response + peaky torque = getting pinned into the seat at 30mph, 60mph, or any mph where I'm applying lateral-forces from cornering.

I don't recall saying WOT = straight line, but you better believe I WOT straight line everyday (up to the posted speed limit).
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:22 PM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Now for a little fun...
"it will never have enough power until I can spin the wheels at the end of the straightaway in high gear." -Mark Donohue

As his response to the Porsche engineers asking if the 917-30's had enough power...which they made between 1100-1500bhp...

Opinions are like an ass, everyone has one




I'll agree that I don't think 200hp will push the car down the track or auto-x course to my desire but it doesn't mean the 2700+lb car won't be fun.

I also find it funny at the guys talking about handling turned handling into a straight line stability situation
I wouldn't consider this a problem until you actually have enough power to cause serious weight transfer at speed...i.e. breaking all 4 tires free when grabbing 4th gear at 110+...then again perhaps I'm someone who loves the corners but equally likes trying to tame a wild beast from one corner to the next.

As for the F1 excuse for power being because they make large downforce and so they make power to overcome the drag...yes, they make massive drag, however if they made that power to simply overcome downforce, why wouldn't they be running full downforce all the time?
OH YEAH, because at some tracks, outright acceleration = faster lap times over 'handling' in the corners. It's racing, not a for fun HPDE.

^^^Give the dumbed down version without making an example and working out all the long hand numbers and lap simulation...

Now back to a road car, since that's ultimately what we're talking about, I think it'll still be slow for passing or for off full throttle late apexing of interstate entrance ramps...but it'll be a lot of fun before that
See bold.

Learn to heel-toe at proper intervals and you'll never have that problem.

I can go through entire HPDE sessions with late apexes, 3 gear downshift braking zones, etc without leaving the VTEC window on my RSX-S because I've learned the car's shift timing, so I'm never at a loss for the fat part of the powerband.

I think this car should feel about the same.
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:56 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by duffman13 View Post
See bold.
Learn to heel-toe at proper intervals and you'll never have that problem.
LOL I have no problem with that. I actually heel toe my F250 too, for shits and giggles...that and the syncros in that 6-spd are sloooow. Also it's fun to get looks when doing it.

As for the post I made, ignore the 'off' as I was originally typing off-ramp and started re-editing.

Now what does staying in the powerband have to do with the powerband not being a tall as I'd want?

You aren't the only track guy here
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:07 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by duffman13 View Post
See bold.

Learn to heel-toe at proper intervals and you'll never have that problem.

I can go through entire HPDE sessions with late apexes, 3 gear downshift braking zones, etc without leaving the VTEC window on my RSX-S because I've learned the car's shift timing, so I'm never at a loss for the fat part of the powerband.

I think this car should feel about the same.
This car will have a much fatter power band than a stock rsx imo.
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:22 AM   #302
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I know this thread is almost 2 months old, but there are a few things in it I wanted to correct.

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Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
SUB-FT86, you can easily get 160lb-ft (at the crank, no drivetrain, relatively constant at low speeds) with a low rpm optimized cam I think...maybe that's something you should look into. This car essentially has a racing cam. The low rpm torque sucks, but fuel economy will be pretty good because of it. Can't buy a sports car and expect the engine to be tuned for low rpm, that's called a truck/SUV :P The beauty of compromise: sometimes you get something good out of it as a side effect.

Matador, may I direct you to the Engine Tech thread?
I wouldn't call it a race cam, race cams have a very high lift and aggressive cam profiles to help airflow. They get lopey down low, idle poorly, etc unless the motor has something like i-Vtec, VVTL-I, etc. From what I can tell, the FR-S doesn't have those issues. It's not a low lift cam, but it's not a race cam either. It's a high lift cam with a mild profile, not a race cam with race profile. I'm sure the aftermarket will take care of that though, like they always do. Of course, whether that's a good idea for someone depends on their goals for the car. Toyota/Subaru went with a cam with higher lift which still kept good idle and low rpm characteristics. It looks like the motor lacks a dual camp profile, so they can't go too high with the lift and timing without causing idle and low rpm issues the general public won't appreciate.

Also, as was stated, you certainly can buy a sports car and expect it to have good low rpm numbers. Plenty of Sports cars are tuned for low rpm power. Heck, the Toyota MR2 turbo is sports car with good low rpm power numbers. The turbo begins to spool very quickly, by 2500rpm you are building significant boost and by 3000rpm you've hit full boost. Also, it's an example of a sports car with good low rpm power number from the Toyota family.

The FR-S was designed after the AE86, which was a high rpm NA car. The car was really designed in that image. It wasn't meant to be a sports car with down low numbers like Toyota's MR2 turbo was, it was designed to be a sports car with a smooth, high revving NA power band like the AE86 was. If it's anything like the other high revving NA cars.

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Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
Well not exactly. I know the example you like to use is the G35. The G35 has so much more power over a wimpy 2L engine car that you were probably satisfied with the low rpm performance, even if it could've been better at high rpm. I don't know how the G35 performs, but I assume it is going to make good torque at high rpm because it goes on the 350Z, which is supposed to be a real sports car.

When you have something like VVEL on the VQ37VHR, you can have a no compromise torque curve because the duration is adjustable. This is the only exception. With something like VTEC, Honda loses valuable fuel economy points if it wants to boost the low rpm torque, so they own't do it. Most sports cars are built by companies which do not have the sophisticated systems to produce good torque all around, so they are tuned for high end power. I am fairly sure this is an accurate trend, as when you look at the car's size vs. the torque curve when the same engine is used across a lineup, the smaller cars typically get tuned for higher rpms. It only makes sense, because horsepower is basically what sells a sports car, and not for a bad reason! The good torque is always available at 30mph and up, which is more than enough for most people.
Plenty of manufactures have systems which control time, duration and lift these days. i-Vtec from Honda (the performance version found in the RSX-S and Civic Si), VVT-LI from Toyota, MIVEC from Mitsubishi, i-AVLS from Subaru, Audi Valvelift and VarioCam Plus from Porsche all change lift, timing and therefor duration depending on the engine conditions. Cam phasing and cam changing are both pretty common these days. It allows the manufacturer and engine tuner to maximize the lower end of the rpm range and the higher and of the RPM range without compromise.

In fact, considering Toyota and Subaru both produce motors which use these technologies, I was hoping they would implement them into the 86/FR-S/BR-Z. When Mitsubishi implemented their Mivec for the Evo starting with the Evo 9 and up, the powerband and output became much better. It's the same reason the Honda's respond to power and boost so well throughout the powerband. It allows them to optimize the engine tune throughout the powerband.

An NA 2.0L motor is always going to have lower torque output, so they make up for it with a higher redline and higher RPM breathability. This is where high lift cams come in handy. Cam phasing and dual cam profiles help even further, since they allow good low rpm drivability while also allowing good high rpm breathability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
Um, you can't have "higher torque than hp", because the 2 are measuring different quantities :P
Of course you can have higher peak torque than peak HP. As DMDZK pointed out, it just depends on where the peak numbers occur in the powerband. If horsepower peaks before 5252, the motor will have a higher peak torque output than peak horsepower number. If the horsepower peaks after 5252 rpms, the motor will have a higher peak horsepower number than peak torque number. If it occurs around 5252rpms, the output will be fairly sqaure (same peak HP and peak torque numbers). HP is just torque * rpm/5252, so which is higher (HP or torque) really just depends on WHERE in the powerband the peak HP occurs.
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