Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

Toyota has supported 3 (different) sports cars at one time before.
Celica, MR2, and Supra in the early 90s.

86, 4 cyl Supra, and 6 cyl Supra are really only 2 different cars.

If the 4 cylinder version exist then I would not even be a little bit surprised if it was called..............Celica.

[HKz]

rvoll many of these things are quite old news/rumors from the past couple years, nothing really new here to get so riled up about. it only takes some lurking ^^ https://www.supramkv.com/forums/


there will still be a need for the GT86 especially in developing markets where shipping it from Japan will be much cheaper than sending a 4 cyl Supra from Austria.. Keep in mind, the 86 is quite expensive in Europe compared to the NA & Asia so I have a hunch the Supra will in turn be quite expensive in the Oceania/Asia markets...

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by TorontoNat

Nah, numbers don't mean shit. Can't compare american and Japanese engineering. Camaros are boats... I have a feeling the 4cyl supra will not be.

What current gen Camaro is a boat? They're pretty nimble.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

What current gen Camaro is a boat? They're pretty nimble.

Alpha Camaro is probably the best handling car for under 50k to be honest.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

Tthe 86 is currently 2776 lbs.

You're saying that a 4 Cyl Supra with turbo components, probably some nicer interior and more rigid parts will be as light as an 86? Not likely. All the (rumors) about the Supra so far are that it would be ~3300lbs. No way it could lose 500lbs by switching out a 6 cyl for a 4 cyl.

Toyota has supported 3 (different) sports cars at one time before.
Celica, MR2, and Supra in the early 90s.

86, 4 cyl Supra, and 6 cyl Supra are really only 2 different cars.

I don't know the weight of the new Supra, but the comments by those who have actually seen the car, and there are several of them, say it is much smaller than it seems. It also has a shorter wheelbase. That argues for a car that is lighter. The MX5 has a 91 inch wheelbase while the 86 has a 101 inch wheelbase. The MX5 weighs about 2400 lbs while the 86 weighs about 2800 lbs. So if we interpolate this data, a sports car with a wheelbase halfway in between with a 4 cylinder engine might weigh 2600 lbs. Add to that a couple of hundred pounds of nicer materials and insulation puts you closer to 2800 lbs, not 3300 lbs. Given the current data, I don't know how you get that heavy with a 4 cyl engine....

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by HachiRokuX

Anyone can make a big heavy car and slap a big V8 in to compensate. Heck, if Toyota wanted, they could make their own version of the new Lotus and use the same engine as the Camry. If it’s really 3400lbs...lol.

The outgoing Z4 with a 6-cylinder weighed over 3,300 lbs, they haven't changed the formula, it's going to be built in one of the most expensive to manufacture plants in the world, and they're not going to raise the price to pay for higher quality materials or more unique designs.

3,100 lbs for the 4-banger is probably pretty accurate, expect at least another 100 lbs for the extra liter of displacement. It's frankly a miracle they're NOT projecting a weight increase, only Chevy and Mazda have pulled off lightening their sporty cars with a new generation this decade as safety requirements get more and more intensive.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by HKz

there will still be a need for the GT86 especially in developing markets where shipping it from Japan will be much cheaper than sending a 4 cyl Supra from Austria.. Keep in mind, the 86 is quite expensive in Europe compared to the NA & Asia so I have a hunch the Supra will in turn be quite expensive in the Oceania/Asia markets...

You still need reasonable volumes to keep a production line going. Developing markets typically don't sell large volumes. It is not what is "needed", it is how many units can they sell.... They are in the business of making money and there is always a cost of goods....

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by TorontoNat

Right, and I am saying that even those "numbers" are incomparable. first of all 350hp@3500lbs. is probably wrong (For the 4cyl) but we obviously won't know until it comes out.
Also, Absolutely 350hp@3500lbs. is nothing to write home about when talking about an old american muscle car. However, imagine the same powere/weight ratio as a camaro delivered in as tight of a package as the FRS.. that to me, is something to write home about (Or "will be" I should say)

Yes, that is indeed unlikely out of the box for the 4-cylinder...I don't think anyone is expecting that power or weight for that version. I'd expect that out of the 6. And while these days making 350hp is almost easy, once upon a time 20 years ago that power moving a few hundred pounds shy of 3500 lbs were the kind of numbers you got from a C5 Corvette. That's probably a much fairer vehicle to compare to. While we of course also don't have legit info on Supra dimensions (yet), I wouldn't be surprised to find it to be similar to a C5 in most every dimension, except probably a bit shorter. Of course when it comes to handling, totally different story.

And all speculation, of course, but I don't think it's not sound. At least until Motor Trend leaks an internal Toyota memo of the car dimensions that they got while having a meeting at Los Pollos Hermanos with an engineer who agreed to meet as long as they could stay anonymous.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The outgoing Z4 with a 6-cylinder weighed over 3,300 lbs, they haven't changed the formula, it's going to be built in one of the most expensive to manufacture plants in the world, and they're not going to raise the price to pay for higher quality materials or more unique designs.

3,100 lbs for the 4-banger is probably pretty accurate, expect at least another 100 lbs for the extra liter of displacement. It's frankly a miracle they're NOT projecting a weight increase, only Chevy and Mazda have pulled off lightening their sporty cars with a new generation this decade as safety requirements get more and more intensive.

The Z4 was a convertible which means 200-400 added pounds for frame rigidity and the top mechanism. Add another 150 lbs for the 6 cylinder, and that brings you down 450 lbs for a 4 cyl comparison. That makes sense given that the wheelbase of the Z4 was 98. So, somewhere between 2800 and 3000 is not out of the realm of disbelief.

[ST185RC]

4 cyl supra? so it's going to be an ecoboost mustang contender?

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by rvoll

I don't know the weight of the new Supra, but the comments by those who have actually seen the car, and there are several of them, say it is much smaller than it seems. It also has a shorter wheelbase. That argues for a car that is lighter. The MX5 has a 91 inch wheelbase while the 86 has a 101 inch wheelbase. The MX5 weighs about 2400 lbs while the 86 weighs about 2800 lbs. So if we interpolate this data, a sports car with a wheelbase halfway in between with a 4 cylinder engine might weigh 2600 lbs. Add to that a couple of hundred pounds of nicer materials and insulation puts you closer to 2800 lbs, not 3300 lbs. Given the current data, I don't know how you get that heavy with a 4 cyl engine....

The MX-5 is always been known as a feather weight. BMW is not known for making light cars anymore. In fact, most of their cars are quite heavy. The 2016 Z4 with a 98 inch wheelbase, which is 3 inches shorter than the 86, weighed over 3300 LBs. BMW is building this car not Mazda. I think the MX-5 comparison is useless.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

What current gen Camaro is a boat? They're pretty nimble.

I'm figuring he means more about size than it being a floaty, sloppy mess. Camaros have learned to become sports cars and not just muscle cars ever since they came back (been a fan of them and Firebirds about as long as I've been alive), but they are pretty massive. They've gone on a diet, thank goodness, but they're still around 3700lbs at the heaviest. That's not light, but 450hp helps with that, and the vehicle just isn't small in size. If you could make the SS weigh as much as the 4-cylinder model does, it would be that much better handling, but still have a pretty big footprint.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Horrid_Funk

Functional Vents!

I've seen multiple people criticize the design for having all of these "fake vents" and styling. Well, turns out they're there for a reason... It seems some are covered stock but can be removed "in case the user wants to make a racing version."

Our fake vents and intakes are "removable" too, doesn't make them not fake. And explain what you could possibly do with a door vent?

You could also easily cut holes in things to make vents and intakes. Does that mean every panel is just a vent waiting to be removed?

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by rvoll

This interview was not about a 4 cyl version -- it was about the prototype. I guess you didn't get that.... And I guess EVERYONE on this forum knew about the shorter wheelbase. After all, who else spends day and night posting? If I would have spent all that time over the years immersed in this forum I might have known. I'll work harder in the future to catch up to the king of the forum who knows all and sees all....

And I'll watch for all of the firings and lawsuits against the publications that quote Tada.... Perhaps with all of his quotes, if not true, Tada will be fired??????

Back and forth aside, corporate decisions on the continuance of a product are done on a yearly, then quarterly, basis. They watch sales, run ROI analyses, calculate break evens, and also integrate with future plans. So on an existing line, information from even a year ago may not be relevant. Competition also plays a role. I suspect the introduction of the RF hurt 86 sales in the longer term. What is true today, may not have been true even 6 months ago. But new car introductions require lead times and CAPEX. They must be planned over the longer term. So the tidbits of information we get from internal sources (like Tada) do have relevance. But information on the declination of existing products are much less reliable because those decisions are generally shorter term, competitive product acceptance is not known, and sales may show a lot of short term variance.

Thus, no matter what what said about keeping an existing product even 6 months ago, the decision may well change based on current sales data. Current volume of the 86 is declining much more rapidly than a normal decay curve would predict. Thus the likelihood of the 86 being discontinued would be significantly increased. Also, in this case, as time evolves, the company can gauge the pricing on new products, like the Supra, and determine the cannibalization from existing brands. There will be a segment of Supra buyers, like me, who may purchase it instead of the 86 even with a significant upcharge.

For those reasons, I do think it is highly probable that the 86 will be discontinued over the next couple of years. Obviously, companies will not comment on product discontinuations because it would hurt sales. So there will be virtually no corroborative information.

rvoll, I feel that comments like I bolded above, are not necessary and do nothing but detract from your argument.


humfrz