twins vs last gen cayman?

[bfrank1972]

I think a lot comes down to preference - actual performance and engineering in the Cayman is obviously above the GT86. But driving experience for many is not just about ultimate performance or engineering - lots of people like a more visceral experience, louder, rougher, more vibration. The opposite of the refinement offered in something as well packaged as a Cayman - it has performance + refinement, but some of us prefer a more raw experience. It can be more fun to drive (for some) even if it is slower, I think the GT86 has proven this time and time again.

[switchlanez]

^I posted that exact point last night on facebook:

"I'm interested in Caymans because it prioritizes handling/driver enjoyment over power, luxury, etc. and was the benchmark engineers used for BRZ development. My BRZ seems to beat or tie it in everything except maybe luxury which contradicts viscerality."

This viscerality vs. luxury dichotomy exists between Everyday Driver hosts Todd who got an FR-S then Elise and Paul who replaced his 987 Cayman with a 981. Some of us are Todds, some Pauls.

[WolfpackS2k]

I can understand the perception (and possible reality) of the 981 being more refined than a GT86/BRZ, but a 987? Not a chance. Lively hydraulic power steering and a loud engine right behind your head dismiss any notion of much refinement.

Cayman S idle in neutral - 56 dBA
BRZ idle in neutral - 42 dBA

Cayman S cruising @ 70 mph - 76 dBA
BRZ cruising @ 70 mph - 73 dBA

Cayman S full throttle in 1st gear - 84 dBA
BRZ full throttle in 1st gear - 85 dBA

That's on the base exhaust system (louder sport exhaust was optional). And the Cayman doesn't have any device "piping in" engine sounds

[switchlanez]

Very relevant article and somewhat controversial when it was published (click on picture which is link to article):

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I can understand the perception (and possible reality) of the 981 being more refined than a GT86/BRZ, but a 987? Not a chance. Lively hydraulic power steering and a loud engine right behind your head dismiss any notion of much refinement.

Cayman S idle in neutral - 56 dBA
BRZ idle in neutral - 42 dBA

Cayman S cruising @ 70 mph - 76 dBA
BRZ cruising @ 70 mph - 73 dBA

Cayman S full throttle in 1st gear - 84 dBA
BRZ full throttle in 1st gear - 85 dBA

That's on the base exhaust system (louder sport exhaust was optional). And the Cayman doesn't have any device "piping in" engine sounds

That hydraulic steering might be my "Hail Mary" like I mentioned and is why I plan to test drive a 987. Had no idea the sound was greater (though mine is boosted) but I was referring more to the raw feedback the chassis transmits from road to driver (even more through basic suspension mods like mine).

Here's an opinion from the article I posted:

"The Cayman's hydraulic steering is excellent, yet the 86's steering is even better: more incisive, quicker, demanding of less input through any given corner, with an instinctive purity that I'd previously thought impossible with electric assistance."

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I think a lot comes down to preference - actual performance and engineering in the Cayman is obviously above the GT86. But driving experience for many is not just about ultimate performance or engineering - lots of people like a more visceral experience, louder, rougher, more vibration. The opposite of the refinement offered in something as well packaged as a Cayman - it has performance + refinement, but some of us prefer a more raw experience. It can be more fun to drive (for some) even if it is slower, I think the GT86 has proven this time and time again.

It’s that very reason I was left with nothing but disappointment with the first Corvette I ever drove. A C6 base, that was brand new at the time. Sure it was fast, and sure it accelerated harder than anything I’d driven before, but it was boring. It was so tame and subdued, it felt like a Camry. A really fast Camry. Too much refinement. What did NOT disappoint, was the Viper ACR I got to drive in Atlanta this passed August. That was the defenition of viceral.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I can understand the perception (and possible reality) of the 981 being more refined than a GT86/BRZ, but a 987? Not a chance. Lively hydraulic power steering and a loud engine right behind your head dismiss any notion of much refinement.

I test-drove a BRZ and two 987.1 Cayman Ss last Saturday, and the BRZ felt more visceral and had more responsive steering.

Caymans were obviously faster, and the steering was OK, but didn't feel as connected as I'd expected. I prefer the steering of my S2000 and the BRZ over the 987.

The BRZ felt more immediate and direct and less isolated while the Porsches felt more isolated and heavier than their ~250 lb. additional mass would suggest. Driving them was a surprisingly ho-hum experience.

Engine noises were amusing enough in both cases, but 7400rpm flat-4s and flat-6s sound a bit, um, agricultural to me. But then I'm used to 9000rpm I-4 bliss in the S2000 and 6.8 liters of OHV V8 fury in the FD...

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I test-drove a BRZ and two 987.1 Cayman Ss last Saturday, and the BRZ felt more visceral and had more responsive steering.

Caymans were obviously faster, and the steering was OK, but didn't feel as connected as I'd expected. I prefer the steering of my S2000 and the BRZ over the 987.

The BRZ felt more immediate and direct and less isolated while the Porsches felt more isolated and heavier than their ~250 lb. additional mass would suggest. Driving them was a surprisingly ho-hum experience.

Engine noises were amusing enough in both cases, but 7400rpm flat-4s and flat-6s sound a bit, um, agricultural to me. But then I'm used to 9000rpm I-4 bliss in the S2000 and 6.8 liters of OHV V8 fury in the FD...

If you got the flat 6 up to 7400 rpm we've got problems. Redline is 7200

I think the Cayman can come across as more isolated because it's a very stable and planted feeling car. It's also important to know if the cars tested included Sport Chrono, and that they were driven with that mode engaged. The stock throttle response is horrible. However it's very lively with SC engaged. Unfortunately you have to turn that mode on every time the car is started. (why couldn't that just be the default standard, dammit )

[brzaapi]

The BRZ steering is faster than the Cayman, the 987 steering ratio is too slow in my opinion as well. I wouldn't say its less responsive than the BRZ. Now you do get more overall feedback(not just steering) as whole since the BRZ is less insulated from the road. But imagine shutting out all other feelings except from the steering wheel, and you may be surprised. I use to drive both cars back to back on early sunday morning drives or PCA AX sessions trying to figure this out. BRZ's EPS is one of the best, but the 987 hydraulic unit in a vacuum is damn good, and has more feel than the BRZ. But, the slower steering rack does take some of the perceived sport out of it. Most of the perceived feedback in the BRZs EPS is also coming from other sources since the car is bare bones for modern car.

Now, as for power and suspension.

Power - If the sound and feel of the flat 6 behind you isn't enough (wasn't for me either) then I suggest you buy the plexiglass engine cover from suncoast parts. Easy install, looks great. Its safe and holy shit, you will hear all kinds of pissed off engines sounds coming from inches behind you. Be warned, conversations in the car will be a bit more difficult. But who cars about that. It truly is rewarding experience. Not exhaust loud, just driver intoxication. May not be for everyone.

Suspension - If you have a chance drive the 987 Cayman R. It gives up some of the Porsche cush for more Porsche Motorsport. I like it a lot. But, you can also go buy the OEM Cayman R suspension for $1500.00 and voila, your pretty close to what the R brings to the table but at the cost of a 987 S.

In the end the 987 is still a great car, but you have to really want one to spend 25 to 45k for a car that is 6 to 12 years old and gives you less performance than the hot hatches of today in the same price range. The BRZ is a better fit for 90% of driving enthusiasts, but the 987 still has charm for the right driver. I have had 3 987s and 4 BRZs, obviously I keep changing my mind with which one I like best. The 987 feels dated, but set one up proper and it is a great car with great feedback. However, it does take more money. The BRZ is great because its cheaper going down most paths that people wil take it...be it a DD, AX, track, show car, etc. And, easier to mod and work on for "MOST" in their garage.

[WolfpackS2k]

Do you by chance have a link to that plexiglass engine cover? I can't locate it on their site. I've tried manually searching, as well as a keyword search for "plexiglass" and "engine cover".

I disagree somewhat on the "hot hatch" comment. Stock for stock, the Focus RS and CTR may be able to hang with the Cayman S, but some of that is due to the extreme tires offered OEM on them. The Focus RS doesn't feel stronger than my Cayman, and it shouldn't as their power/weight ratios are pretty similar. Stickier tires on the Cayman and the hatches fade away. You can only overcome physics so much. And that's for the 987. 981s are even faster.

That's not to say it isn't an arms race. At VIR 2 weekends ago a more experienced driver with a moderately modified GTI (most notable being very aggressive tires) was considerably faster than me. I let her pass me by in every session.

But again, worth mentioning my suspension needs some maintenance at this point, maybe the Bilstein PSS9 set up. Where did you find the Cayman R suspension for $1500? Suncoast as it listed for $2400. I've heard the PSS9s are superior to the Cayman R setup, and less expensive as well.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

If you got the flat 6 up to 7400 rpm we've got problems. Redline is 7200

C'mon, 7400 is still a "Range 1" overrev, no prob whatsoever! Tachometer redlines are generally extremely conservative. I dunno where the rev limiter is on the 987.1 but even 7700rpm is only a "Range 2" overrev for the engine, considered safe

I think the Cayman can come across as more isolated because it's a very stable and planted feeling car.

It is stable, but that's not it. It's the slow steering, and also it just seems to be too refined. A major positive for a luxury car, but I would rather it felt a bit more like my old tin-can 240Z than a Mercedes!

It's also important to know if the cars tested included Sport Chrono, and that they were driven with that mode engaged. The stock throttle response is horrible.

Neither car I drove had Sport Chrono. Throttle response didn't strike me as being too laggy, I didn't notice it one way or the other TBH, but I wasn't exactly giving it hell. If there's a designed-in lag or smoothing function in the DBW it might have subconsciously affected my impression...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

Now you do get more overall feedback(not just steering) as whole since the BRZ is less insulated from the road.

This. I really wish Porsche had not evolved into a *luxury* sports car (and luxo-sedan and SUV!) company :'(

Minimalism and light weight are sports car virtues. IMO sports cars should bear more relationship to economy cars than luxury cars!

But imagine shutting out all other feelings except from the steering wheel, and you may be surprised.

I dunno, I paid pretty close attention to steering *feel*. To me it seemed comparable to an E36 M3's or my old S13. Which is pretty good! But maybe I was expecting magic...

Power - If the sound and feel of the flat 6 behind you isn't enough (wasn't for me either) then I suggest you buy the plexiglass engine cover from suncoast parts. Easy install, looks great. Its safe and holy shit, you will hear all kinds of pissed off engines sounds coming from inches behind you.

Neat! But it's not that there wasn't enough engine noise, it's the *quality* of engine noise from the flat-6. They just sound sorta utilitarian/agricultural to me. Not really a major complaint, it's kinda cute in a way! But you'll never mistake it for a Ferrari V8, or even an Alfa V6... Like you'll never mistake the Sube flat-4 for a NA Honda (VTEC yo!) I-4...

Suspension - If you have a chance drive the 987 Cayman R. It gives up some of the Porsche cush for more Porsche Motorsport. I like it a lot. But, you can also go buy the OEM Cayman R suspension for $1500.00 and voila, your pretty close to what the R brings to the table but at the cost of a 987 S.

Snot-green Cayman R would be GREAT, but too much $$$. I'd sooner upgrade a non-R with aftermarket suspension even more track-oriented than R.

In the end the 987 is still a great car, but you have to really want one to spend 25 to 45k for a car that is 6 to 12 years old and gives you less performance than the hot hatches of today in the same price range.

I'd rather drive a slower rwd sports car any day!

I have had 3 987s and 4 BRZs, obviously I keep changing my mind with which one I like best. The 987 feels dated, but set one up proper and it is a great car with great feedback. However, it does take more money. The BRZ is great because its cheaper going down most paths that people wil take it...be it a DD, AX, track, show car, etc. And, easier to mod and work on for "MOST" in their garage.

Damn, we have similar tastes, these are literally the only modern cars on my radar!

Still could go either way... Or I could drive the S2k til it dies!

Great post, thanks!

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by ZDan

C'mon, 7400 is still a "Range 1" overrev, no prob whatsoever! Tachometer redlines are generally extremely conservative. I dunno where the rev limiter is on the 987.1 but even 7700rpm is only a "Range 2" overrev for the engine, considered safe

LOL, good to know. Also, apparently fuel cut is 7300, not the 7200 I stated earlier.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Neither car I drove had Sport Chrono. Throttle response didn't strike me as being too laggy, I didn't notice it one way or the other TBH, but I wasn't exactly giving it hell. If there's a designed-in lag or smoothing function in the DBW it might have subconsciously affected my impression...

I've always throught of the default 987 throttle response to be worse than the BRZ or S2000. Besides that however, the standard engine mapping includes a soft fuel cutoff. The ECU starts cutting power at 6800, gradually from there to 7300 rpm. With Sport mode enabled that's not the case. Full power available all the way to 7300. An often overlooked feature.

[r_rated]

Thew new Cayman is going to blow the 86 out of the water in every single way. But you could buy 3 or 4, 86's for the price.

A much better comparison would be a first gen Cayman base. You'd think it would feel underpowered but it's not at all, my best friend has one and this is coming from a 991S. Also, even the base flat 6 of the first gen is worth the price of admission which is ~20K pretty easy now. Very analog, light, nimble and buttoned down. Even then though cost to buy and cost 2 own are not the same.

It is really hard to beat an 86 given the price. As long as it's a value discussion the 86 can hold it's own quite well but you take $$$ out of the equation and it loses. 10K in mods on a Cayman gets you 500hp btw so even mods aren't justification. (source: TPC turbo) Also - the cayman hold's it's own quite well in terms of value but if you read the parallel thread on a Porsche forum they're comparing to more expensive cars.