FRS vs Camaro Handling

[sweetfrs]

...................? camero vs frs, ok this is straight up retarded........... who compares a camero to an frs. in terms of handling especially, like W T F. BANN THIS GUY LOL

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Hey man, might've missed my post since tagging people doesn't always work on this forum, but any thoughts on what I wrote earlier?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=155

I should've missed this sorry. Will respond quickly

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

@glamcem I'm curious and I don't mean to offend, but I just got around to watching your track vids (the ones at RMP) and I can't help but wonder if you've ever had anyone else quick drive your BRZ to compare yourself to them?

The reason I ask is that from the videos, both cars perform the exact same except for horsepower, you carry about the same amount of speed through every corner, so I can totally understand your sentiment that the Camaro handles just as well as the 86.

I can't help but wonder if you've got a mental block that prevented you from maxing out the capabilities of your 86, I wonder if that setup was capable of higher mid-corner speeds than what you have in your videos. Otherwise it's downright remarkable that the Camaro and BRZ are so extremely close in cornering capability, like within 2-5 mph through every single corner until the power comes on.

I only ask because I have 100% experienced this myself and that's where I'm at in my driving talent, if you put me in one car with street tires around a track, eventually I'll hit a wall where I think 'this is all I can do' and if you put me in a car that objectively handles better (better tires, suspension, lighter, whatever), I likely wouldn't significantly increase my mid-corner speeds because I still have that mental block of "oh I can only carry 40 mph through there" even though it's not a conscious decision.


You've been downright awesome coming back and posting your experiences in this thread, I've enjoyed reading your posts. I'm not trying to bag on the Camaro or your talent, I just found it incredible how similar they corner and can't help but wonder if it's the driver not the car.

That's a great question, and I appreciate that you brought up this very important point. I am not offended or anything In fact, I was asking the same question to myself and still do, things like "what would be the true potential of my car in a hands of a hot shoe like Randy Pobst?". The overall lap time would be definitely better of course but to what extent?

Keep in mind though, although the overall track time would be very different in the hands of an average track guy like me vs a professional race car driver, the difference in certain spots (tight corners and/or safe, long sweepers) shouldn't be that big IMO unlike the high speed corners, especially if you really study that certain corners over and over again. I use certain reference points to push the cars to the limit and find the sweet spots of the maximum entry and exit speeds just before the car starts sliding and cost me time. I typically use racechrono for this type of analysis but since it utilizes the GPS sensors (vs OBD readings) speed readings will be off. I typically need to trust my judgment bvecause of that and try to look at the speedo before, mid corner and corner exit when I can. With the BRZ, I think I had a good chance of pushing the car to its limits with the setup I had (not overall lap time as I mentioned above but the grip on certain corners ) and test different slip angles. I was referring to those sort of corners when I compared the Camaro.

Keep in mind, I couldn't even push the Camaro just yet but even with that I found that I am not behind my BRZ. I looked at certain cornner at the Ridge (carousel) and my overall speed was not behind the BRZ and I wasn't really close to the car its limits. My friend who has a track build Miata (aero, R comps, Ohlins..etc) told me that at that corner Viper ACR passed him like he was standing still You would expect that a car that weighs almost 1,000lbs less than the Viper would be at least close to that but it wasn't the case. If you think about it the only advantage with a lighter car demolished by a lot heavier car. Viper will already has an advantage on every other metric and if I lighter car doesn't have that advantage the gap will be huge and it is. This is exactly how I felt with the 1LE. I didn't get a chance to push the last tires with my BRZ ( Z214s ) to its limits like the NT01s because no matter what I did, it felt like it still has a lot of grip to push it a bit further. I am talking about a 40 TW real R comps though.

1LE feels like (as expected from the performance metrics) it can still outhandle my BRZ. And I did ran off the track few times, had some tank slappers, a few spins here and there and had to back down after with the BRZ, while I was searching for those limits. In the videos, it's not very easy to see but in my best laps I was able to feel the back end is just about where it should be (no more or less). with that said, I might suck at shifting, deciding the best line ..etc of course that's where a real race driver comes in play

Other important perspective is; with a lighter, less powerful car it's somewhat easier to reach the car's limits, definitely easier than heavier and more powerful cars without worrying to kill yourself. Say for instance, if I were to use the BRZ at its 85-90% of its potential (at corner entry and exit), I should be only at maybe 75-80% with the 1LE. If the corner speeds on the Camaro is the same considering that I am not close enough to its true potential, it only means that the overall handling difference would be in favor of the Camaro. In both cases, driver factor (me) and the overall conditions were the same except the fact that I am still in learning phase of the 1LE.

I hope that helps ..

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by sweetfrs

...................? camero vs frs, ok this is straight up retarded........... who compares a camero to an frs. in terms of handling especially, like W T F. BANN THIS GUY LOL

I like the edited for misspelling notation on this one......What did you actually fix?!?!?

[Denver1LE]

Originally Posted by glamcem

"what would be the true potential of my car in a hands of a hot shoe like Randy Pobst?". The overall lap time would be definitely better of course but to what extent?

Track: Leguna Seca
Driver: Randy Pobst

Car: 2013 BRZ
Time: 1:51.3

Car: 2017 SS 1LE
Time: 1:37.78

[Denver1LE]

Originally Posted by sweetfrs

...................? camero vs frs, ok this is straight up retarded........... who compares a camero to an frs. in terms of handling especially, like W T F. BANN THIS GUY LOL

Why? This thread is fun. BTW the context of who did the comparing is an FR-S owner making a statement about how badly the SS 1LE would lose in handling, so...

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Denver1LE

Track: Leguna Seca
Driver: Randy Pobst

Car: 2013 BRZ
Time: 1:51.3

Car: 2017 SS 1LE
Time: 1:37.78

Yes, I've seen this . The gap is very big stock vs stock
I was referring to my Rotrex build BRZ at our local tracks. It is somewhat hard to use crossreferences since the track layout and other factors favor one car in certain tracks and the other car on the other.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I hope that helps ..

I think it does. We would likely disagree on some of the finer points of what's left on the table, how close to the limits average Joes like you or I could do and have a very intense conversation lasting hours and hours.

I didn't get a chance to push the last tires with my BRZ ( Z214s ) to its limits like the NT01s because no matter what I did, it felt like it still has a lot of grip to push it a bit further. I am talking about a 40 TW real R comps though.

1LE feels like (as expected from the performance metrics) it can still outhandle my BRZ.

Different people feel comfortable in different setups, I honestly believe you left some speed on the table in the 86 and just feel straight up more comfortable in the Camaro, despite your feeling that you're closer to the theoretical ceiling in the 86, I believe it's the opposite based on those two videos and what you've written. But that's just pontification so I won't waste too much time on that.

My friend who has a track build Miata (aero, R comps, Ohlins..etc) told me that at that corner Viper ACR passed him like he was standing still You would expect that a car that weighs almost 1,000lbs less than the Viper would be at least close to that but it wasn't the case.

I think mechanical grip is playing a huge part in your experiences, and it's doubled down in this anecdote. How big a tire was on that Miata? 225? 245? Google is telling me the Viper comes stock with an 11" and 13" wheel, 295 & 345 tires. That's a lot of grip, and I think there's a similar, if lesser, differential between the 86 and Camaro. Yeah there's a huge difference between R-comps and showroom stock tires, but there's also a big difference that comes with a big contact patch.



Ultimately, you're the only person with reliable experience in this thread after pages and pages of bullshit (mine included). The Camaro sticks with your BRZ in the corners with actual data to back it up, that's worth more than any hypothetical or magazine test.


One last thing I'm curious about, what peak g were you seeing on the Nittos and Hankooks? Just out of curiosity, I won't make any arguments or judgements about it, I'm just curious if the lower treadwear track g's are on par with what I've seen in street tire autox. I don't need datalogs or anything, just off the top of your head.



And once again, thanks, it's been a very interesting read and certainly shut my mouth on the Camaro's capabilities.

[Denver1LE]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Yes, I've seen this . The gap is very big stock vs stock
I was referring to my Rotrex build BRZ at our local tracks. It is somewhat hard to use crossreferences since the track layout and other factors favor one car in certain tracks and the other car on the other.

It is very hard to nail this down, I think at the end of the day it's certainly way outside my level of driving, so I'm glad there are folks who have experience to share.

[Ryephile]

I threw my hat into the 1LE camp too, despite being a lifelong small car fanatic. After getting the car on-track last weekend at Gingerman, I'm impressed at the cars capabilities. Looking over in the Fastest Track Time thread, a modded 86 on Hoosiers setting the NASA TTD lap record was 4.5 seconds slower than my stock 1LE on stock Goodyears, and that was my first time out with the car. Peak lateral g for my 1LE was 1.5g according to my PDR. The pace delta is undeniable.

I hate to admit it but the stereotype of "muscle cars can't turn" just isn't valid anymore. It doesn't change that I still like the 86 twins. They're still fun cars to drive.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I agree with you for the most part. I think the part of the reason why the performance variant (BRZ STI and whatnot) is not available in the US is because the cost. In Japan, and Europe (and for most countries) higher displacement engine is very costly, it's not very uncommon to pay $3-4k taxes annually for a V8 engine which is not the case here in the U.S. That means JDM or EDM market can get away with the higher price tag of the smaller engine cars but if you try to sell a BRZ for almost $40k in the U.S. it might not work because of the competition. For a very limited amount of cars this may not be an issue such as Mugen Type R ..etc since there will be always some collector who's willing to pay for it.

This is not the main reason. Subaru was for decades a semi-public company and they had deep roots with the Imperial Japanese Army. They don't like to export their best-of-breed models and they prefer to keep it for themselves. Anyway, this is another discussion and I just respect your opinion about the Camaro.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Denver1LE

Track: Leguna Seca
Driver: Randy Pobst

Car: 2013 BRZ
Time: 1:51.3

Car: 2017 SS 1LE
Time: 1:37.78

Damn, the Camaro lap has a speedometer overlay, shame the old BRZ video doesn't and double shame that I didn't have data logging up when I did my laps at Laguna.



Next time I track I'm 100% at least running Harry's laptimer, by trolling others youtube videos, the ones that have data show about a 5mph slower midcorner speed than the Camaro, with street tires and amateurs behind the wheel.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjKjnbOsSEs"]2017 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE Hot Lap! - 2016 Best Driver's Car Contender - YouTube[/ame]



With boatloads of money and balls an 86 can get down to the 1:40 range, but that's a silly comparison.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by sweetfrs

...................? camero vs frs, ok this is straight up retarded........... who compares a camero to an frs. in terms of handling especially, like W T F. BANN THIS GUY LOL

You're the worst

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Different people feel comfortable in different setups, I honestly believe you left some speed on the table in the 86 and just feel straight up more comfortable in the Camaro, despite your feeling that you're closer to the theoretical ceiling in the 86, I believe it's the opposite based on those two videos and what you've written. But that's just pontification so I won't waste too much time on that.

With the Z214s possibly, with NT01s not so much I was comparing sector lap times and trying to keep it as close as possible and even I did it would be within a fraction of a second, it's not like gaining 5mph on the certain corner

I think mechanical grip is playing a huge part in your experiences, and it's doubled down in this anecdote. How big a tire was on that Miata? 225? 245? Google is telling me the Viper comes stock with an 11" and 13" wheel, 295 & 345 tires. That's a lot of grip, and I think there's a similar, if lesser, differential between the 86 and Camaro. Yeah there's a huge difference between R-comps and showroom stock tires, but there's also a big difference that comes with a big contact patch.

yes and that's the point (Along with the other things that we discussed of course)

Ultimately, you're the only person with reliable experience in this thread after pages and pages of bullshit (mine included). The Camaro sticks with your BRZ in the corners with actual data to back it up, that's worth more than any hypothetical or magazine test.

Thanks, keep in mind though it's not 100% accurate because with the BRZ I was using external GPS data vs Camaro's PDR data. Also, I have to note in the Ridge video I was running smaller 19" wheels. The actual speed should be about 3% less than in that video because of that.

One last thing I'm curious about, what peak g were you seeing on the Nittos and Hankooks? Just out of curiosity, I won't make any arguments or judgements about it, I'm just curious if the lower treadwear track g's are on par with what I've seen in street tire autox. I don't need datalogs or anything, just off the top of your head.

I wasn't looking at the peak Gs and am not sure how it's possible without the G sensors. Peak Gs might be similar with some R comps to RE71Rs and new Goodyear tires the difference should be the consistency which may not be an issue at AutoX. I have no Autox experience so I am not 100% sure.

I am going to ORP next weekend and will be testing OEM Goodyear G3 tires against the Trofeo Rs. I will post them here