Article posted on the valve recall engine murders

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

I read that article today; it was a well-presented, accurate summary of what's been presented on this forum and it's highly probable that Chris Tsui, the author, is one of us and a contributor to and/or originator of one or more of the threads. It's nice to see more and more public acknowledgement of the issue, and hopefully the dealerships that are trying to shift to the blame to the consumer will become fewer and fewer. I dropped my car off this morning and the service manager was well aware of the issues, and said that because of them there's a huge parts-availability problem now. I feel better about the whole thing than I did yesterday; he seemed confident that a new engine for my car will be forthcoming. He's been great about everything on this car and some of my others over the years, and I have no reason to believe he will be less than helpful this time.

It is and it isn't a good article. It makes many presumptions of fact from forum statements. Even though I tend to agree with those presumptions they are not facts but people reading it may take them as such.

[maslin]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It is. The problem isn't with replacing the springs the problem is with Subaru's decision to do away with actual gaskets in favour of goop.

The problem isn't the goop, it's the technicians inability to handle it.

I've been gluing engines together since 2006, still haven't blown one up. All the engines I'm around are glued together, it's normal for us.

Slow down, be careful and don't blow up engines. Simple.


Should also note, this stuff isn't "RTV", the nasty smelling silicone stuff everyone has seen. It dries almost hard and doesn't act like that sticky crap at all.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by maslin

The problem isn't the goop, it's the technicians inability to handle it.

I've been gluing engines together since 2006, still haven't blown one up. All the engines I'm around are glued together, it's normal for us.

Slow down, be careful and don't blow up engines. Simple.


Should also note, this stuff isn't "RTV", the nasty smelling silicone stuff everyone has seen. It dries almost hard and doesn't act like that sticky crap at all.

And the manufacturing of the early 13 engines right from the start. This stuff has blown up engines from cars that had never been taken apart before. I have been preaching this to deaf ears for 3 years and the most recent update to the instructions shows EXACTLY the points I was talking about. Not a coincidence that the VIN range that had nasty leaks are also the ones that spun bearings right from the factory. If the goop was applied so poorly that a new car is leaking oil then there is a very good chance that it is blocking things it shouldn't. The design of the oil passages being so close to the sealant is just asking for trouble that you would not have with actual gaskets.

[Tgutz21]

Originally Posted by ka-t_240

If the engine only lasted a couple of blocks its clearly a workmanship issue on their part. If the motor seized that quick, it should have been knocking when you dropped it off

The car was working perfectly fine and I not kidding when I say I didn’t even drive it a quarter mile. I just felt uneasy when they emailed me asking for service records. They technically haven’t told me I’m responsible for the damage, but I’m just taking precautions.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by ka-t_240

If the engine only lasted a couple of blocks its clearly a workmanship issue on their part. If the motor seized that quick, it should have been knocking when you dropped it off

It probably knocked on their test drive too.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by maslin

The problem isn't the goop, it's the technicians inability to handle it.

I've been gluing engines together since 2006, still haven't blown one up. All the engines I'm around are glued together, it's normal for us.

Slow down, be careful and don't blow up engines. Simple.


Should also note, this stuff isn't "RTV", the nasty smelling silicone stuff everyone has seen. It dries almost hard and doesn't act like that sticky crap at all.

This Threebond 1217H was actually damned easy to work with. Like you said you just go slow, watch your placement, don't stop, don't overlap, don't go too slow where it gets too thick and don't put your arm in it. Also place the parts perfectly so you don't have to slide them into position after the surfaces touch. It isn't rocket science. Prep work is also critical. You have to get ALL the old stuff off first and preferably use a trash can for the trash rather then the oil pan.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by humfrz

I'm about to believe this, with the exception of @ermax.

I'm at about 8,000 miles since my rebuild and have sort of stopped stressing about it failing but reading all these stories has me a bit stressed again. I figure 8K of serous abuse should have surfaced a problem by now. My fingers are crossed.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It is and it isn't a good article. It makes many presumptions of fact from forum statements. Even though I tend to agree with those presumptions they are not facts but people reading it may take them as such.

I agree with you re/ the presumption of facts. That's why I characterized it as a well-presented, good summation of what's been presented on the forum, and I give him credit for frequently citing his sources as primarily being forum posts and personal experience, rather than ignoring that and letting folks assume what he was writing was proven laboratory analysis rather than the anecdotal evidence that it primarily is.

[BRZnut]

Originally Posted by Tgutz21

I took my 2013 BRZ in about 3 weeks ago for the recall. Since they were already doing the recall I asked what it would cost me to replace the clutch since it was starting to make a noise when it was engaged. They told me I would only charge me for parts and not labor since they’re pulling the engine anyway. Long story short I pick up the car last night and I drive it less than a quater mike and the engine dies. I was able to turn it back on and drive it back to the dealer. And it cut off just as I turned into the street and I just coasted it in a parking spot. They email me this morning wanting me to provide service records for the oil changes, because the block blew.. I’ve always done them myself at every 6-8k miles. I’m kinda worried they’re going to try to pin this on me when the car was running perfectly fine when I took it there. I’m curious as to what I should do or tell them if they try to send me a bill.

Is this the first BRZ recall failure reported here????

Also, does anyone make a gasket that could be used instead of the liquid sealant that is suspected of causing the post recall failures??

[maslin]

Originally Posted by BRZnut

Is this the first BRZ recall failure reported here????

Also, does anyone make a gasket that could be used instead of the liquid sealant that is suspected of causing the post recall failures??

I believe there have been a few BRZs so far, the vast majority of failures are on the FRS.

The engine went in to the shop with liquid gasket. It had a liquid gasket from the day a robot built it in the factory. The gasket material isn't the problem.

Glued together engines (cars for that matter) aren't new. I've been around it since 2006, they've been doing it since the 80s. Not RTV, the thick stuff. It works very well.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It is. The problem isn't with replacing the springs the problem is with Subaru's decision to do away with actual gaskets in favour of goop.

Yep, back in the day, I found goop was handy to "tack" a gasket in place, while putting two parts together and/or you could save a few pennies by re-using the old gaskets.

I reckon that either a Subaru bean counter figured they could save X dollars by eliminating the gaskets or they couldn't teach the robots how to put the gaskets on -


humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by BRZnut

Is this the first BRZ recall failure reported here????

Also, does anyone make a gasket that could be used instead of the liquid sealant that is suspected of causing the post recall failures??

The article references 17 FRS and 2 BRZs. Blaming the "inexperience" of the Toyota techs is premature though.
There were 27,000 2013 FRSes (some with 2012 build dates) vs 12,000 BRZs so right off the bat we would see 50% fewer potential failures. The Toyota dealers had the recall kits at least a month before the Subaru ones did so they have likely done many more already. It is completely feasible that the Subaru rate could easily meet the FRS one. Now that said, the updated instructions were issued mid February (the 14th if I recall) so this should help curb some of the failures.
Unfortunately we have no idea how many successful repairs have been made by either company since we only hear about the horror stories that skew the perception. We simply do not have enough data to say anything for sure.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by maslin

..
The engine went in to the shop with liquid gasket. It had a liquid gasket from the day a robot built it in the factory. The gasket material isn't the problem.

Glued together engines (cars for that matter) aren't new. I've been around it since 2006, they've been doing it since the 80s. Not RTV, the thick stuff. It works very well.

The question isn't if a 1217H FIP gasket works well or not; it obviously does when a robot or top-flight mechanic who is familiar with exactly how and where it is to be applied actually does the work. The problem is that, after the fact, when robots or experienced specialists are not available to undertake this task, the human element seems to introduce failure with this stuff at a MUCH great rate than a human would simply using an old style, manufactured-for-this-specific-engine gasket. I've done one head gasket under the supervision of an experienced mechanic (which I am certainly not), a ton of valve cover gaskets, waterpumps, thermostats, etc., and have never had a gasket-related failure due to my admittedly mediocre mechanic skills and limited experience. It's pretty safe to say that if I undertook this job, I can say with certainty I'd create a grenade instantly. I can't even make a nice caulk line around a bathroom tub.
Even if it were possible, the opportunity for profit in making an aftermarket gasket that serves the same function as the 1217H FIPG in our engine is probably nonexistant. On the other hand, it may very well have given a lot of these well-meaning mechanics a better chance at success.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by maslin

I believe there have been a few BRZs so far, the vast majority of failures are on the FRS.

The engine went in to the shop with liquid gasket. It had a liquid gasket from the day a robot built it in the factory. The gasket material isn't the problem.

Glued together engines (cars for that matter) aren't new. I've been around it since 2006, they've been doing it since the 80s. Not RTV, the thick stuff. It works very well.

Yes the material itself is not at fault. The poor application and/or removal of the material is.