Shopping between BRZ and MX-5. Can't get over torque dip.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

Whatever, maybe I should have said beaten to death.

That it has. It is every time it get's brought up though. I can pretty much predict exactly who will say what on the subject at this point.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Tangizdope

My main points for the OP was just taco is easier to keep up with traffic, taco has more torque, and taco has stronger torque in low to mid range.
It's a step down for daily driving if all you do is drive in traffic and straight lines. If your commute is curvy, then 86 is perfect. It has lots of room (in terms of my lifestyle), one of the best handlers I've ever driven, and it looks great.
The problem is that people would rather tell everyone to buy a twin, rather than seeing what they came from and telling them the downsides of the twins vs what they used to drive. Then that guy regrets buying one years later and say bad things about the twins.
Most of these people have never even driven a 2nd gen tacoma before yet tells the OP power is great. If OP is already complaining about power before even buying the car, how do you think he will feel in a few years. He comes from a meaty torque curve. You will definitely notice that dip all the time if you have been driving a 2nd gen taco daily.

Pretty sure most, if not all of us have said to buy the MX-5, and that getting the BRZ would be a mistake.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That it has. It is every time it get's brought up though. I can pretty much predict exactly who will say what on the subject at this point.

I wouldn't expect anything less

[GrantedTaken]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

I firmly believe that 100% of the people who complain about the performance of a twin on the street cannot drive.
.

This.

Civic has less horsepower and is heavier.
Yet no one seems to complain about that.

The 86 is faster than most cars on the road today.
0-60 in 6 seconds.

Can merge?
Learn when to use a gear selector.

[soundman98]

I've learned that a lot of people would rather have HP for bragging rights then actual use. A lot of people aren't used to pushing a car higher then 4k rpm on the street. I've ridden along with some people that drive like that, and then attempt to blame the 86 because they are insisting on shifting in the dip instead of pulling to redline when they need power.

With the close ratio gearbox, the car is a very anti-2000+ style of busybody driving that doesn't suit everyone.

[Dake]

I wish they'd made sixth gear a bit taller in our car.

I road-tripped my 89 Celica to Radwood a couple weeks ago and at 70mph, it's turning almost the same RPMs in 5th as the FR-S does in 6th. The FR-S isn't a torque monster by any means, but it still could've been made to cruise at lower RPMs in sixth. Might've gotten another couple highway MPGs out of it.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the age-old discussion at hand. Just a random thought.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Dake

I wish they'd made sixth gear a bit taller in our car.

I road-tripped my 89 Celica to Radwood a couple weeks ago and at 70mph, it's turning almost the same RPMs in 5th as the FR-S does in 6th. The FR-S isn't a torque monster by any means, but it still could've been made to cruise at lower RPMs in sixth. Might've gotten another couple highway MPGs out of it.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the age-old discussion at hand. Just a random thought.

Everyone knows you should cruise around 4k. Jk

[Qwimby1]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

Pretty sure most, if not all of us have said to buy the MX-5, and that getting the BRZ would be a mistake.

I can't speak to the NC and ND Miatas. My last one was an NB turbo Mazdaspeed, of which only 5300 were made.


While my twin is slower than my MX5, I find it has more than adequate power for any kind of driving. It's a delightful car in most respects. And while it's not a lot heavier than the Miata, it feels like it is. I think some of that may be due to the steering effort, which is considerably heavier than the Miata. I have a slightly-smaller diameter Cusco wheel in mine, but I don't think that's enough to make much difference.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by GrantedTaken

This.

Civic has less horsepower and is heavier.
Yet no one seems to complain about that.

The 86 is faster than most cars on the road today.
0-60 in 6 seconds.

Can merge?
Learn when to use a gear selector.

2014 brz 0-60 = 6.2 seconds

2016 silverado z71 5.3 crew cab 0-60= 6.9 seconds. The new trail boss is 6.2 seconds.

Faster than most cars on the road??

This a quick, reliable, entry level sporty car. Nothing crazy.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

2014 brz 0-60 = 6.2 seconds

2016 silverado z71 5.3 crew cab 0-60= 6.9 seconds. The new trail boss is 6.2 seconds.

Faster than most cars on the road??

This a quick, reliable, entry level sporty car. Nothing crazy.

But the truth is that i can use my 6.9 second 0-60 because i don't have drinks in the cupholder, kids arguing in the back seat, or someone in the passenger seat that is afraid of horizontal tire loading causing an interdimensional wormhole.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by soundman98

But the truth is that i can use my 6.9 second 0-60 because i don't have drinks in the cupholder, kids arguing in the back seat, or someone in the passenger seat that is afraid of horizontal tire loading causing an interdimensional wormhole.

Yours too??


humfrz

[KAuss]

Holy crap, I didn't think this conversation would blow up and carry on for so long. I took a few days off just to make sure I'm not stepping on people's toes here because I like the twins, and I like this forum.

So with that said, I just want to let everyone know I made my decision. I did end up picking up my 2019 Club RF MT MX-5 in Black today. I'm not going to make this long as I don't think many of you want to talk MX-5 with me, but I just want to give everyone some closure.

The straw that broke the camel's back was the fact that I "can" sacrifice to get a MX-5 now. I won't be happy doing it, but I think I can live with the impractical nature of the car. Where as the BRZ would be a car I can pick up even much later in life because it is practical enough. BOTH cars are FREAKING AMAZING TO DRIVE! I think a little bit of this has been lost due to a certain topic I brought up, which only shows itself in direct comparison. At no point do I feel one car is trash, while the other is "always the answer."

I want to let everyone know that this decision wasn't easy. The BRZ was a LOT better than I've anticipated especially after all the negative press on it's one glaring flaw. The MX-5 was actually a lot less exciting compared to the hype and pedestal I put it on top of since I drove the NC. Still, with one being better than I thought, and one being worse than my hype that I gave it, they both landed on earth and became and very equal fight.

If there's ONE thing this thread has shown me, it is how passionate all of you are about your vehicle. It's special, because you have two groups of people flying Toyota / Subaru badges both saying the exact same thing to me. That makes a strong community. As I've said before, even though I think the average age of a MX-5 owner is older, does not mean they are easier to get along with. I can fit in any crowd, and you all have a super strong community around your car. You all have more responses here than the Miata forums on the thread I started there. That's actually really eye opening as this thread took a bit longer to gain traction.

Either way, I still love and respect the twins. Rocket Bunny kits are amazing, and so are the endless amounts of mods / vendors that support these cars. You all have FT-86 SpeedFactory, and Miata guys have Flyin' Miata. I don't think I could have gone "wrong" with either car in the long run.

Alas, I've said that I've followed this car since 2011 when it was in concept, even before this forum was around. I've followed it for as long as it was possible to follow it. I've dreamed of owning this car. It just wasn't the right time for me.

I've joined the Miata forums for 13 years since 2006. Though that's a LOT later than the car has been around. Despite following them for longer. Both cars are very special, but somewhere within these 13 years, the MX-5 became a bucket list car for me. One that I must own and experience before I die. The twins never really quite made that status, and I honestly blame the negative press. Because after driving it, it was MUCH better than they insisted.

As I promised, I'm not going to bring up the topic again, and I'm going to stand by that Toyota / Subaru are smarter than they have shown so far. I have NOTHING but high hopes that gen 2 of the twins will make me regret buying my 19 Club MX-5. I will not hate that day, in fact I'll look forward to it.

So why did I type all this and spend the time? Because I respect the hell out of this car, this forum, and this community (automotive community as a whole). I just want everyone to know this was one of the hardest decisions of my life, probably a bit hyperbolic, and a bit drama inducing. I wish I honestly could have owned both of these cars.

Thank you all for your time, and I'm not planning on going anywhere. Maybe when my car gets of age, and someone in the Bay Area wants to figure out what the hub bub was all about, you all can drive my MX-5 and find out. You all have been more than amazing.

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by KAuss

Holy crap, I didn't think this conversation would blow up and carry on for so long. I took a few days off just to make sure I'm not stepping on people's toes here because I like the twins, and I like this forum.

So with that said, I just want to let everyone know I made my decision. I did end up picking up my 2019 Club RF MT MX-5 in Black today. I'm not going to make this long as I don't think many of you want to talk MX-5 with me, but I just want to give everyone some closure.

The straw that broke the camel's back was the fact that I "can" sacrifice to get a MX-5 now. I won't be happy doing it, but I think I can live with the impractical nature of the car. Where as the BRZ would be a car I can pick up even much later in life because it is practical enough. BOTH cars are FREAKING AMAZING TO DRIVE! I think a little bit of this has been lost due to a certain topic I brought up, which only shows itself in direct comparison. At no point do I feel one car is trash, while the other is "always the answer."

I want to let everyone know that this decision wasn't easy. The BRZ was a LOT better than I've anticipated especially after all the negative press on it's one glaring flaw. The MX-5 was actually a lot less exciting compared to the hype and pedestal I put it on top of since I drove the NC. Still, with one being better than I thought, and one being worse than my hype that I gave it, they both landed on earth and became and very equal fight.

If there's ONE thing this thread has shown me, it is how passionate all of you are about your vehicle. It's special, because you have two groups of people flying Toyota / Subaru badges both saying the exact same thing to me. That makes a strong community. As I've said before, even though I think the average age of a MX-5 owner is older, does not mean they are easier to get along with. I can fit in any crowd, and you all have a super strong community around your car. You all have more responses here than the Miata forums on the thread I started there. That's actually really eye opening as this thread took a bit longer to gain traction.

Either way, I still love and respect the twins. Rocket Bunny kits are amazing, and so are the endless amounts of mods / vendors that support these cars. You all have FT-86 SpeedFactory, and Miata guys have Flyin' Miata. I don't think I could have gone "wrong" with either car in the long run.

Alas, I've said that I've followed this car since 2011 when it was in concept, even before this forum was around. I've followed it for as long as it was possible to follow it. I've dreamed of owning this car. It just wasn't the right time for me.

I've joined the Miata forums for 13 years since 2006. Though that's a LOT later than the car has been around. Despite following them for longer. Both cars are very special, but somewhere within these 13 years, the MX-5 became a bucket list car for me. One that I must own and experience before I die. The twins never really quite made that status, and I honestly blame the negative press. Because after driving it, it was MUCH better than they insisted.

As I promised, I'm not going to bring up the topic again, and I'm going to stand by that Toyota / Subaru are smarter than they have shown so far. I have NOTHING but high hopes that gen 2 of the twins will make me regret buying my 19 Club MX-5. I will not hate that day, in fact I'll look forward to it.

So why did I type all this and spend the time? Because I respect the hell out of this car, this forum, and this community (automotive community as a whole). I just want everyone to know this was one of the hardest decisions of my life, probably a bit hyperbolic, and a bit drama inducing. I wish I honestly could have owned both of these cars.

Thank you all for your time, and I'm not planning on going anywhere. Maybe when my car gets of age, and someone in the Bay Area wants to figure out what the hub bub was all about, you all can drive my MX-5 and find out. You all have been more than amazing.

Post pics or it's a Mustang

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

He noticed the dip because he read about it and saw the dyno that makes it look horrible. He would have "noticed" it even if it didn't exist because he was looking for it.
That damn dyno is so incredibly deceiving since it doesn't show duration. Under heavy acceleration it is a 10% drop for a fraction of a second. It is not this total loss of torque for several seconds that people represent it to be.

You know what, I'm just going to clear the air on this one. I promised, but I just have to maybe address how the "feel" is different.

In the MX-5 test drive, the pull is linear. This has nothing to do with speed. The "surge" you feel is constant, and you feel it decrease slightly as the RPMs climb as HP increases, and as torque starts to taper down. (The feeling is the weight shifting to the back under heavy acceleration, and gradually the weight shifts back to the front as torque dies down).

In the BRZ, you have this feeling of massive acceleration (G forces glues to you the seat) then this section of the RPM range in the middle where you feel the car give (the G forces shifts a bit of the weight back towards the front of the car) and then all of a sudden past 5K, you start to feel the car kick (shifting weight back to the back wheels again). That stutter is what is felt.

In this moment, you "feel" the non-linear torque band. Calling it the "dip" is just the most convenient because everyone knows what that is. Imagine having to type the last two paragraphs each time I wanted to talk about that irregular torque curve. I even preface that I can't imagine how annoying it is to keep having people throw that word in all your faces after hearing it for years from reviews. I don't like it but I did experience it.

At no point did I say the cars were fast nor slow. I don't like straight line speed. All I'm saying is the linear feel. I prefer the MX-5's linear feel, and both cars have shown that they're pretty neck and neck when it comes to track times. So there's no doubting both cars are capable. I also agree that you can stay above this issue in RPM range if you're pegging your needle at red line, or downshift just to avoid it.

Even if I drove nothing else, and never read a thing, I can feel this torque change. I have a piggyback with a custom map on my X-Runner. I actually have the SAME exact torque curve after 5K. It literally feels like turbo boost kicking in and the BRZ has a very similar feel to a lesser degree. My tune is pretty bad for what it is.

I've owned a 2002 WRX in the past, and wasn't really fond of the turbo lag in that thing. N/A motors to me always felt linear. My X-Runner was that way for the most part prior to the tune. After owning the WRX, I personally like NA a lot more despite the advantages turbo brings. I've never owned a supercharged vehicle (X-Runner actually has a factory option at one point). I've driven twin scroll turbos now too, and they kick in a lot sooner, but it still kicks in all at once with a spike depending on car. I've driven a 2015? WRX my cousin owns. He's tuned to stage 2 IIRC. Not a fan still, and it has nothing to do with speed.

I don't want to beat this dead horse, but to just assume someone looked at a dyno or saw a review is the reason why they commented on it, that isn't exactly fair.

Even if it does not take away from the speed of the vehicle, it's a different "feeling" than linear torque. It does not make it bad, just different. Heck, the RX-8 had one of the most linear torque bands I can remember driving all the way to redline. It didn't feel fast, but you never felt the weight shift once you put the pedal to the floor. No one would pick that car stock as a straight line monster, but I absolutely love that feeling going through the revs.

I just want to make it clear that at no point do I want to use that word to signify that this car is bad. Just different stroke for different folks, and it reminded me of cars I've driven past and present that was less enjoyable for me because of the weight shifts. That's all.