SUBARU MAY LOSE BRZ?!

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by krayzie

If it wasn't for Toyota Yamaha Denso D-4S this boxer engine would only have about 120hp, probably no better than a 20 year old Civic Si.

That's a bit extreme. The last gen 2.0L Impreza made 148hp. I'm pretty sure direct injection isn't going to get you a 67% increase in power. 10 to maybe 20% at the extreme sure.


You'd have to be an engineering dufus or stuck in a broken Tardis to get 60hp/L in a performance engine.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

You'd have to be an engineering dufus or stuck in a broken Tardis to get 60hp/L in a performance engine.

You forgot about the tree huggers.

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/tada-how-to...6#.U6uBD_ldWSo

Tada: How Toyota and Subaru created the GT86
February 11th, 2013 by Toyota Blog
Read Tetsuya Tada’s behind-the-scenes story on the development of the Toyota GT86.

"So the project was on again and the initial approval was for us to take the Subaru engine as it was. This was for financial reasons. We persevered but one year into the project and both sides could see that while we had a sports car, it still needed a good power level of 100bhp per litre and also an environmental target of a maximum of 160g/km of carbon dioxide emissions. With the Subaru flat four as it was we could get one and not the other. If we wanted 160g/km we only got 60bhp per litre, which meant 120bhp in total; not enough."

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by krayzie

You forgot about the tree huggers.

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/tada-how-to...6#.U6uBD_ldWSo

Tada: How Toyota and Subaru created the GT86
February 11th, 2013 by Toyota Blog
Read Tetsuya Tada’s behind-the-scenes story on the development of the Toyota GT86.

"So the project was on again and the initial approval was for us to take the Subaru engine as it was. This was for financial reasons. We persevered but one year into the project and both sides could see that while we had a sports car, it still needed a good power level of 100bhp per litre and also an environmental target of a maximum of 160g/km of carbon dioxide emissions. With the Subaru flat four as it was we could get one and not the other. If we wanted 160g/km we only got 60bhp per litre, which meant 120bhp in total; not enough."

So the 2013 Impreza NA is a gross polluter huh, mkay.


I have to admit, I'm now intrigued to compare the emissions of the S2000 versus the FA20. Not that I really give a shit about polar bears humping, just curious about the products of different engineering constraints with different budgets at different times in history.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

So the 2013 Impreza NA is a gross polluter huh, mkay.


I have to admit, I'm now intrigued to compare the emissions of the S2000 versus the FA20. Not that I really give a shit about polar bears humping, just curious about the products of different engineering constraints with different budgets at different times in history.

Couldn't edit, had to quote myself, sorry folks.


Looks like S2000 is 236.3 g/km. Makes you wonder what Honda would have gotten being restricted to 160 g/km. 32% reduction.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=39


http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/24/l...frs-spy-shots/


It's not just some tuner's car. It's wearing Toyota Manufacturer plates DAU 0684

Well then it's probably the updated version of the official German circuit car I mentioned. Mods like that are never going to make it to a production model in the USA.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by krayzie

I was just mentioning the D-4S technology (Direct Injection 4 Stroke Superior Version).

I've read the paper that described D-4S technology which was co-developed by Toyota, Yamaha, and Denso. I think it was the paper that described the development of the Lexus D-4S engine. There's a PDF somewhere on the web.

Yeah, could be on a Lexus engine but I'm pretty sure Yamaha wasn't involved with this Subaru engine. The D-4S was strictly Toyota/Denso. It'd be cool though if Yamaha were to actually tune the heads for this Subaru - I'm sure it'd have even more revability and horsepower and sound.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

Looks like S2000 is 236.3 g/km. Makes you wonder what Honda would have gotten being restricted to 160 g/km. 32% reduction.

Sometimes I wonder if strict emission target was a main factor towards the demise of Honda's small displacement performance engines line-up.

I think there is a high probability for Toyota to up the FA20 displacement into a FA25 for the 86 mid-cycle refresh.

If Subaru is to drop the BRZ for the mid-cycle refresh, would they still be making the car for Toyota I wonder.

[alpine]

Originally Posted by krayzie

Sometimes I wonder if strict emission target was a main factor towards the demise of Honda's small displacement performance engines line-up.

I think there is a high probability for Toyota to up the FA20 displacement into a FA25 for the 86 mid-cycle refresh.

If Subaru is to drop the BRZ for the mid-cycle refresh, would they still be making the car for Toyota I wonder.

If that were the case wouldn't it make sense for them to keep putting out the BRZ

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by krayzie

I think there is a high probability for Toyota to up the FA20 displacement into a FA25 for the 86 mid-cycle refresh.

If Subaru is to drop the BRZ for the mid-cycle refresh, would they still be making the car for Toyota I wonder.

Here's my wild ass guess:


They'll drop in a new NA 2.5l FA25 for the mid cycle refresh and that engine will also be the basis for a turbo variant destined for the WRX STi. The NA version will maintain the 100hp/l and crank out 250hp with more lower end torque.


The "I'd buy a FRS/BRZ if it only had 2XX amount of HP crowd" still won't be satisfied and sales won't meet the bean counters approval. This will give Toyota and Subaru a convenient excuse to dissolve the partnership and still save face.


Toyota will push forward with their BMW relationship for the next generation GT86/FRS and Subaru will be able to greenlight the rumored SVX project as a replacement for the, "one of these things is not like the others", BRZ.

[Annahra]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

Here's my wild ass guess:


They'll drop in a new NA 2.5l FA25 for the mid cycle refresh and that engine will also be the basis for a turbo variant destined for the WRX STi. The NA version will maintain the 100hp/l and crank out 250hp with more lower end torque.


The "I'd buy a FRS/BRZ if it only had 2XX amount of HP crowd" still won't be satisfied and sales won't meet the bean counters approval. This will give Toyota and Subaru a convenient excuse to dissolve the partnership and still save face.


Toyota will push forward with their BMW relationship for the next generation GT86/FRS and Subaru will be able to greenlight the rumored SVX project as a replacement for the, "one of these things is not like the others", BRZ.

Can I have your crystal ball when you are done with it?

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

The "I'd buy a FRS/BRZ if it only had 2XX amount of HP crowd" still won't be satisfied and sales won't meet the bean counters approval. This will give Toyota and Subaru a convenient excuse to dissolve the partnership and still save face.

If Subaru listened to the enthusiast crowd, we'd have had a lightweight three door hatch STi years ago. Instead they came out with a five door wagon. Because, you know, that's pretty close, right?

[glorydays]

its crazy how much this car parallels the starion/conquest:
twin car by two manufacturers (mitsu and chrysler)
rwd
lsd
2+2
weird fuel injection setup
possibly will be boosted in some fashion before it gets cut after say two generations...
if they make a widebody version of the twins ill shit myself.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by Annahra

Can I have your crystal ball when you are done with it?

I did say it was a WAG

Originally Posted by gramicci101

If Subaru listened to the enthusiast crowd, we'd have had a lightweight three door hatch STi years ago. Instead they came out with a five door wagon. Because, you know, that's pretty close, right?

I'm not arguing with you. I would have loved a STi 3 door hatch/liftback. I was only trying to synthesize all of the recent statements from Tada san, the rumors of the SVX project, and the continued strife between Subaru and Toyota in this joint project.

[gramicci101]

I know, I was just making a comment about Subaru. For what it's worth, I think your prediction is right.