Honda J series v6 swap?

[Ashikabi]

So not to thread jack but... Has anyone considered the H6 out of an Outback(or whatever)? I don't know anything about them, just seems like a logical step up from the H4

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Poodles

NA Miata motors are quite heavy (cast iron block with aluminum head), so I'm betting the FA20 is far lighter.


Regardless, V6's in general suck (not going to get into the design reasons, but they're ONLY good for packaging)

I say you're quite wrong on both counts. Horizontally opposed motors are notoriously heavy when compared to inline motors of the same displacement and number of cylinders. The guys at Vorshlag even stated that the FA20 is the heaviest 4 cylinder engine they've ever worked with. And the broad generalization that V6s suck is just absurd.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

So not to thread jack but... Has anyone considered the H6 out of an Outback(or whatever)? I don't know anything about them, just seems like a logical step up from the H4

I recall seeing pictures of a third gen (I think) 3 liter into an FT86 chassis...for the power gained, it seems like an awful lot of weight to add.

[civicdrivr]

Originally Posted by swarb

@civicdrivr dude look at the video. look at the swap parts. intake manifold modded(but stock), it has a intake, and I doubt you can use a stock exhaust so that is modded. And it doesnt mention header. There are two dyno plots, it is DYNO TUNED as my post before says. Lets not talk about swapping cranks and turbo'ing it. And then mentioning not making LS power.

The whole point of any swap is usually 3 things.
1. cheap/affordable/cost effective, which this is not, especially when you have to do custom fabrication and a bunch of labor when compared to something like a jackson racing super charger which can be installed and tuned in a day.
2. fast, kinda, but not really for the price, unless you time is free or you have lots of it.
3. reliable, yes because honda, no because engines are used as these older motors have been sitting.

I need to apologize, because I was watching the video on my phone and didn't see what looked like AEMTuner on the laptop. So yes, the engine is running the AEM EMS2 - the state of tune is still up for discussion, and I've posed the question to them via YouTube.

Also from the video, I see that the intake manifold is a different design compared to the manifold they have on their website. The throttle body neck and throttle body was moved to the belt side of the engine, which required the deletion of the IMRC unit, which is causing a loss a low end torque. While not ideal, it's still better then the unit on their website (pictured below).



This design is feeding cylinders 4-6 (driver side bank) with the bulk of the air. I'm curious as to how much air cylinders 1-3 are actually seeing.

Regarding the exhaust system - if they are using the system posted on their website (pictured below), it's garbage, plain and simple. It looks like they are using factory manifolds. Even swapping to cheap XS Power headers on a J32A2 has been proven to gain 16-23whp time and time again.



Sure, driveline losses could potentially affect power numbers a bit more then what people are accustomed to seeing when it comes to the J series, but that particular engine is still down on power, either way you slice it.

Originally Posted by venturaII

The K series was brought up as a candidate due to making close to what a stock J32 makes for peak power, but being lighter. While it's true that it's lighter, it's still down on power, plus it's WAY down on torque, which is one of the big problems the FA20 has in the first place. The J series splits the difference between the K20 and the LSx, in terms of size, weight, and power, and is likely the cheapest of the bunch.

There is an adapter plate to mount a K series to a S2k transmission out there (or at least, there used to be), which has crossed my mind in the past. Header, cams, ITBs and a tune and you're nearing 300whp with an engine that just sounds amazing at 8k rpms.

EDIT - Found it:

Adapter plate: http://www.balladesports.com/product...-adapter-plate

Flywheel: http://www.balladesports.com/product...s2000-flywheel

You can use any OEM style clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing with it.

Originally Posted by venturaII

The starter location mentioned earlier IS an issue, so perhaps that might be what keeps this idea from working, unless a solution can be found. I'm not sure if the kit location is due to requirements of the Handa motor, or the Miata transmission. But given the fact that a different adapter plate would be required to mate the Honda motor with the Toyota transmission anyways, and that our starter is already on the transmission side of things AND at the top of the transmission, it might be an easier solution than you think. Or not. lol

I've toyed with the idea of mounting a J to the twins transmission using an adapter plate and finding a compatible flywheel/clutch combo. I don't know if the transmission can handle the torque and the way it is delivered though.

Originally Posted by Koa

sorry for trolling this earlier.. J series V6 definitely would be unique, but the K series honda engines are just soooooo godly. Rev-happy 100hp per cyliner, reliably on stock internals, with a proper setup FI... what more could one ask for?

I assume you meant 100hp per liter.

The J revs very well and sounds good IMO (video of mine below, because I miss it and like hearing it every now and then), is incredibly reliable, and handles boost just the same as a K. Oddly enough, the engines that landed in Acuras have factory forged parts while the engines that went into Pilots, Odysseys and Accords use cast bits - granted, they're not the same quality as, say, Wiseco parts. As far as 100hp per liter goes, it's not quite as good as the K, but it comes damn close. As I mentioned before, a properly sized exhaust, headers, intake, and ported J32A2 intake manifold will get you about 270whp. Assuming a 15% drivetrain loss, that's about 320hp at the crank.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MyxAVeRIXk"]VID_20121230_144652.mp4 - YouTube[/ame]

(the rattle was the phone resting on the column)

Originally Posted by venturaII

Fair enough. Personally, nothing beats the sound of a well tuned 60 degree V6, and there is plenty of aftermarket available to turn the J series into a real screamer, if so inclined. I grew up working on Capri-based Ford Colognes and Alfa V6s (as well as lots of other Euro oddballs...), so I have a soft spot for that sound. Displacement of the Honda motor is a nice compromise between I4 screamer and LSx, and the ample torque reflects this. But I'm not trying to compare it to an LSx - I think the 275-300 bhp/250 ft-lb range would be perfect for our transmissions to live behind and not be blowing them and axles up all the time. There's plenty of potential in the motor to go well up into the 350+ range when you add cams and head work, etc, but then you're opening a new can of worms to deal with at that point. Simple bolt-ons and a tune would be more than enough to put it on par with a supercharged FA20, and have 3x the reliability. Plus you'd have a nice sound and less weight than a F/I FA20.

It might be less weight depending on the intake manifold setup you go with, but it would probably end up being about the same.

When I blow up another FA20, I will probably toss a J in the bay just to get an idea, but I will most likely be going with and LS if I'm honest. It's not a daily, so I don't care if it's "too much".

Originally Posted by NOHOME

All swaps are a bad idea. But so is bedding bat-shit crazy hot chicks, Driving sports-cars way over your head on a track and jumping out of airplanes.

So fucking what? It's got to be done.

I like you. We should be friends.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by civicdrivr

It might be less weight depending on the intake manifold setup you go with, but it would probably end up being about the same.

Well, Vorshlag weighed a N/A FA20 and manual transmission, and it was just under 500 pounds, if I recall correct. The guys at HaSport weighed a J32 with FWD manual transmission and accessories, and it came to 550 pounds. Keep in mind that the Honda weight ALSO included axles and factory iron manifolds. So when paired with the lighter Toyota transmission, and without the power steering pump, axle weight, and a set of headers, it's quite safe to say the weight would effectively be a wash, and could easily be lighter. Certainly no more weight.

[NOHOME]

Originally Posted by civicdrivr

I need to apologize, because I was watching the video on my phone and didn't see what looked like AEMTuner on the laptop. So yes, the engine is running the AEM EMS2 - the state of tune is still up for discussion, and I've posed the question to them via YouTube.

Also from the video, I see that the intake manifold is a different design compared to the manifold they have on their website. The throttle body neck and throttle body was moved to the belt side of the engine, which required the deletion of the IMRC unit, which is causing a loss a low end torque. While not ideal, it's still better then the unit on their website (pictured below).



This design is feeding cylinders 4-6 (driver side bank) with the bulk of the air. I'm curious as to how much air cylinders 1-3 are actually seeing.

Regarding the exhaust system - if they are using the system posted on their website (pictured below), it's garbage, plain and simple. It looks like they are using factory manifolds. Even swapping to cheap XS Power headers on a J32A2 has been proven to gain 16-23whp time and time again.



Sure, driveline losses could potentially affect power numbers a bit more then what people are accustomed to seeing when it comes to the J series, but that particular engine is still down on power, either way you slice it.



There is an adapter plate to mount a K series to a S2k transmission out there (or at least, there used to be), which has crossed my mind in the past. Header, cams, ITBs and a tune and you're nearing 300whp with an engine that just sounds amazing at 8k rpms.

EDIT - Found it:

Adapter plate: http://www.balladesports.com/product...-adapter-plate

Flywheel: http://www.balladesports.com/product...s2000-flywheel

You can use any OEM style clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing with it.



I've toyed with the idea of mounting a J to the twins transmission using an adapter plate and finding a compatible flywheel/clutch combo. I don't know if the transmission can handle the torque and the way it is delivered though.



I assume you meant 100hp per liter.

The J revs very well and sounds good IMO (video of mine below, because I miss it and like hearing it every now and then), is incredibly reliable, and handles boost just the same as a K. Oddly enough, the engines that landed in Acuras have factory forged parts while the engines that went into Pilots, Odysseys and Accords use cast bits - granted, they're not the same quality as, say, Wiseco parts. As far as 100hp per liter goes, it's not quite as good as the K, but it comes damn close. As I mentioned before, a properly sized exhaust, headers, intake, and ported J32A2 intake manifold will get you about 270whp. Assuming a 15% drivetrain loss, that's about 320hp at the crank.

(the rattle was the phone resting on the column)



It might be less weight depending on the intake manifold setup you go with, but it would probably end up being about the same.

When I blow up another FA20, I will probably toss a J in the bay just to get an idea, but I will most likely be going with and LS if I'm honest. It's not a daily, so I don't care if it's "too much".



I like you. We should be friends.

Just to prove that I deserve to be in this nuthouse of irresponsibility, here is current swap project: P1800 swapped on to Miata chassis with 302 conversion. Absolutely stupid thing to do. But a lot of fun.

[BoostedWrbBrz]

MUCH rather swap a 2gr into one of these

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by venturaII

I say you're quite wrong on both counts. Horizontally opposed motors are notoriously heavy when compared to inline motors of the same displacement and number of cylinders. The guys at Vorshlag even stated that the FA20 is the heaviest 4 cylinder engine they've ever worked with. And the broad generalization that V6s suck is just absurd.

480lbs for the FA20 with transmissions and accessories
433lbs for the BP Miata motor and trans (5 speed)
Our trans is a bit heavier as well.
No idea on the weights on this V6 you speak of.


On the subject of V6's, I said I don't really want to get into it, but if you insist:
- Only 4 mains (VS 7 for an I6 or 5 on an I4)
- Splayed rod journals that are weak
- An inherently imbalanced engine design.


I can go on, but the ONLY thing a V6 has over an I6 is packaging. Over an I4, it's displacement (which if you haven't noticed the OEM's are doing away with V6's and replacing them with turbocharged I4's).


Now, if one had to use a V6, I'd be eyeing a GR motor from Toyota to keep it somewhat in the family. 1GR with a TRD supercharger would be interesting, but 2GR-FSE would be interesting as it has the same injection system as the FA20. Small possibility that the swap could happen without going standalone... I don't really see the advantage in the Honda motors (lots of work for not much more displacement/power)

[1GiantTurtle]

Originally Posted by Poodles

480lbs for the FA20 with transmissions and accessories
433lbs for the BP Miata motor and trans (5 speed)
Our trans is a bit heavier as well.
No idea on the weights on this V6 you speak of.


On the subject of V6's, I said I don't really want to get into it, but if you insist:
- Only 4 mains (VS 7 for an I6 or 5 on an I4)
- Splayed rod journals that are weak
- An inherently imbalanced engine design.


I can go on, but the ONLY thing a V6 has over an I6 is packaging. Over an I4, it's displacement (which if you haven't noticed the OEM's are doing away with V6's and replacing them with turbocharged I4's).


Now, if one had to use a V6, I'd be eyeing a GR motor from Toyota to keep it somewhat in the family. 1GR with a TRD supercharger would be interesting, but 2GR-FSE would be interesting as it has the same injection system as the FA20. Small possibility that the swap could happen without going standalone... I don't really see the advantage in the Honda motors (lots of work for not much more displacement/power)

2gr-fse is too tall

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by 1GiantTurtle

2gr-fse is too tall

Who says it has to fit under a stock hood?

[1GiantTurtle]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Who says it has to fit under a stock hood?

it can it's just a custom intake manifold must be created for the 2gr, there's already a 3gr swap they too had to custom make a intake manifold

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHTYli5E_Ds"]トãƒ*ス N086V コンセプトï¼�TOM'S N086V Conceptã€�TOYOTA 86】 - YouTube[/ame]

[civicdrivr]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Well, Vorshlag weighed a N/A FA20 and manual transmission, and it was just under 500 pounds, if I recall correct. The guys at HaSport weighed a J32 with FWD manual transmission and accessories, and it came to 550 pounds. Keep in mind that the Honda weight ALSO included axles and factory iron manifolds. So when paired with the lighter Toyota transmission, and without the power steering pump, axle weight, and a set of headers, it's quite safe to say the weight would effectively be a wash, and could easily be lighter. Certainly no more weight.

The J series 6MT is about 110lbs. I believe a dressed long block is right around 430lbs. It's a surprisingly light (and compact) motor.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Poodles

On the subject of V6's, I said I don't really want to get into it, but if you insist:
- Only 4 mains (VS 7 for an I6 or 5 on an I4)
- Splayed rod journals that are weak
- An inherently imbalanced engine design.


I can go on, but the ONLY thing a V6 has over an I6 is packaging. Over an I4, it's displacement (which if you haven't noticed the OEM's are doing away with V6's and replacing them with turbocharged I4's).

Apparently your 'advanatages' listed for I6 motors don't really amount to much in the real world since the last I6 GP car was probably built around 1955. Needing 7 mains versus 4 just means that 3 1/2 foot long crankshaft NEEDS 7 mains to keep from flexing like a wet noodle. Offset journals are, in theory, weaker than a conventional journal, but theory and reality aren't necessarily the same. If it's strong enough, then it's strong enough. I'm sure a locomotice engine would be the strongest choice in theory, but reality has a different set of criteria. I like a straight 6 as much as the next guy (I've owned many, both in quantity and variety of manufacturer), but they are only superior to the fanboys, much the way a Ford is better than a Chevy and vice versa.

[civicdrivr]

@venturall I replaced my clutch Friday and decided to play around with a few bare blocks while the transmission was out.

The good news: The stock transmission can be used with an adapter plate. but you'll need to run a newer J35/7 block. The FRS flywheel, clutch and pressure plate can be used as well as long as you open up the flywheel bolt holes a bit. This allows you to use the stock starter, getting around that potential headache. You'll need to use a different clutch slave cylinder, one that mounts on the input shaft, as the factory slave cylinder fouls on the block.

The bad news: Honda changed the transmission bolt holes for the 4G TL (2009+), and that is the generation of block you need to run. The bolt holes on the older blocks overlap the holes on the transmission, so an adapter plate would be difficult. This means you can't use the older, cheaper engines. Newer J35/7s sell for around $1500-2000, even up to $3000 for one with VTEC on the exhaust valves.

I don't know how much power the stock transmission can handle, but I don't think it'll be able to cope with a twin turbo'd J37.



I'm still planning on running an LS since it seems easier, should cost the same, if not slightly less, and can make more reliable power. But a J swapped 86 would seem like fun.

Sent from my XT1095