Official Formula 1 thread

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I don't disagree with this, I doubt he would have the same gap if he was in Ferrari's car or Lotus's or a Mercedes for the last 15 laps, he has a Red Bull, a Red Bull that was deemed legal after post race inspection.

TBH, I should end the convo here but goddamnit, I love the internet too much to let it go.

What you just said jives with my turkey ya dig?

I am saying:
1: RBR are legal
2: Vettel is fast, but his performance gap to the other drivers is the car.
3: I don't actually know what their advantage is, but they have one and it's something unique that NOBODY else has or is doing.
4: I accept that the answer may not be the KERS-TC theory but that theory is A) really F'in cool and B) does answer a lot of questions. But really.. It's just really F'in cool.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Everything else is speculation

We're talking about it in the Off-Topic section of a car enthusiast board... Oh it's definitely speculation!

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I don't know where you got that I attribute 2 seconds a lap to Vettel's talent alone

Alcohol. I'm pretty sure it was the alcohol... Either that or I was responding while in the middle of a Supernatural marathon on Netflix. So there's that.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The only definitive evidence of cheating would be dissecting everything hooked up to the KERS system and the code used to operate it. It's certainly possible but I don't think it's true.

A) I don't think they're cheating and B) That's what makes the KERS-TC explaination so cool is how they did it without cheating. The history of the sport (and Occams razor) would suggest that cheating is of course the answer like it so often is. I don't feel this to be true even though a part of me wishes it was.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

After your posts I'm more convinced that they're using KERS to take the load off the brake system running both systems to the limit of their capability leading to the KERS failure and trouble in traffic (have to lean more heavily on the brakes which induces some fade). This also reduces the stress at the hubs from braking so they can shave some weight there as well. Very curious, an evening with Newey and some truth serum (if it existed) would be an F1 fans dream or nightmare depending on the "truth".

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Edit: for reference check out the years of Schumacher and Senna/Prost and Williams domination, they had something up their sleeve

Relentlessly up their sleeve, sometimes cheating, sometimes not but anytime there was a huge time gap it pretty much was the car.

A)Williams Active Suspension with Prost
B)Lauda's "setup" advantage as illustrated in RUSH
C)Bennetton's "not-so-secret" traction control with Schumacher
D)Ferrari's relationship with Bridgestone during the MS domination.
E)Renault having Piquet Jr deliberately wreck to advance Alonso's position
F)Brawn GP double defuser.

When it's cheating and when it's not, it's always some uber cool technical black magic that never fails to fascinate. (with the exception of Piquet at Singapore)


In summary: changing the engine/drivetrain/KERS systems is entirely irrelevant to me. It's the wrong direction. If F1 wants to make the racing better they'd put restrictions Aero and let the cars run lots more Mechanical grip (tires as wide as a WalMart customer!).

[strat61caster]

I'm enjoying this as well. I'll cut down my response so I'm not faffing about.

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I am saying:
1: RBR are legal
2: Vettel is fast, but his performance gap to the other drivers is the car.
3: I don't actually know what their advantage is, but they have one and it's something unique that NOBODY else has or is doing.
4: I accept that the answer may not be the KERS-TC theory but that theory is A) really F'in cool and B) does answer a lot of questions. But really.. It's just really F'in cool.

Relentlessly up their sleeve, sometimes cheating, sometimes not but anytime there was a huge time gap it pretty much was the car.

A)Williams Active Suspension with Prost
B)Lauda's "setup" advantage as illustrated in RUSH
C)Bennetton's "not-so-secret" traction control with Schumacher
D)Ferrari's relationship with Bridgestone during the MS domination.
E)Renault having Piquet Jr deliberately wreck to advance Alonso's position
F)Brawn GP double defuser.

When it's cheating and when it's not, it's always some uber cool technical black magic that never fails to fascinate. (with the exception of Piquet at Singapore)

In summary: changing the engine/drivetrain/KERS systems is entirely irrelevant to me. It's the wrong direction. If F1 wants to make the racing better they'd put restrictions Aero and let the cars run lots more Mechanical grip (tires as wide as a WalMart customer!).

1. I don't understand how this hypothetical KERS TC system can be legal when considering the spirit of the rules. It (by principle) limits the torque to the wheels to prevent slippage, I'm sure I don't have to link the rules.

2. We're pretty much on the same page now.

3. A lot of those things weren't illegal and were pretty well known during their implementation (actice suspension, Ferrari/Bridgestone sponsorship and tech exchange, double diffuser), they can definitely be considered shady but nothing that was outright banned aside from Bennetton's TC which still hasn't been proven as far as I can tell...

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_cheating_controversy"]1994 Formula One cheating controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I'm indifferent to team orders, Piquet won't be missed, everyone knows Flavio is a cheater (as evidenced by his two entries in you list) but shit was he entertaining, the circus bear on the tricycle.

Any more info on Lauda other than the movie? Makes sense if that's where his speed came from, Ferrari was well known for throwing all their money at the engine and using that to compensate for a mediocre, heavy, unbalanced chassis. Focusing on car setup and exotic materials was certainly not illegal.

I guess you're point is that black tech magic is the cool part of F1, the public fans/journos had this epiphany of what KERS is capable of, I'd be surprised if RBR has actually pulled it off. In any case I'll be reading wiki tonight.



Edit: definitely agree about the quality of racing, regulate the aero more tightly and throw the rest of the money into other stuff.

This is also one of the reasons for my fondness of NASCAR, much cooler simpler tricks to get around the rules:
15/16ths scale car (huge aero advantage), 2" diameter fuel lines (they drained the tank and were about to tear the car down then Yunick hopped in the car and drove away while the fuel tank was sitting in tech inspection), charcoal in the springs so it would break over the first bump lowering the car for the rest of the race, finding old tires that were hardened like rocks = no pit stops to change tires, basketball in the fuel tank so it would pass the inspection for volume, deflate it for the race, Darrel Waltrip was caught using NOS. Much less secretive and pretentious about it, I wonder what Knaus and Evernham and Zippideli will admit to when they're retired.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Any more info on Lauda other than the movie? Makes sense if that's where his speed came from, Ferrari was well known for throwing all their money at the engine and using that to compensate for a mediocre, heavy, unbalanced chassis. Focusing on car setup and exotic materials was certainly not illegal.

But Lauda knew about those materials and the importance of them. It was a time before computers, before telemetry and the engineers were still figuring things out. That was a great era where Aero was still mostly a mystery (it still is but not like then) and you had team owners like Enzo Ferrari that said Aero Dynamics "were for people who didn't know how to build engines." He was wrong.

The learning curve on the mechanical/aero/engineering side of the fence was still very steep in this era. Lauda was a master at car setup and had good grasp around the concept of Aero as well. It was a time where the drivers were made a huge difference because they played such a significant role in car setup. Senna and Schumacher were masters of making the car work for them. The could come back in after a few laps give the most detailed feedback to the mechanics.

Now they have super computers, chemical/computer/aero engineers that are on par with any of the brains at NASA. They have Computational Fluid Dynamics which almost renders wind tunnels obsolete. They have car-to-pit telemetry that measures everything. The technical advances in F1, if left entirely unfettered, would allow the engineers to build a car that would essentially render the driver almost irrelevant all while turning lap times several seconds beyond what they do now. The driver still plays a part but not like they did in the past. I mean Maldonado is an awful driver but he has lots of money, an inferior car and how far behind Vettel is he in qualifying? 1 maybe 2 seconds? The difference in lap times between a Maldonado and a Vettel if this were 1974 would be massive. (that's conjecture and opinion but I stand by it).

That's what F1 is though.. It's always a balance of human competition (the drivers) vs technical competition (engineers). If it's too restrictive then people complain of too little development, too little innovation but if it's too open for tech and innovation then people complain that it's just the computers driving the car. Always a fine line.

[rice_classic]

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

But Lauda knew about those materials and the importance of them. It was a time before computers, before telemetry and the engineers were still figuring things out. That was a great era where Aero was still mostly a mystery (it still is but not like then) and you had team owners like Enzo Ferrari that said Aero Dynamics "were for people who didn't know how to build engines." He was wrong.

The learning curve on the mechanical/aero/engineering side of the fence was still very steep in this era. Lauda was a master at car setup and had good grasp around the concept of Aero as well. It was a time where the drivers were made a huge difference because they played such a significant role in car setup. Senna and Schumacher were masters of making the car work for them. The could come back in after a few laps give the most detailed feedback to the mechanics.

Ah I got the impression you implied that Lauda cheated, having advanced knowledge and a technical mind is simply another tool for success in motorsports. Hence the success of Chapman and Mclaren and Brabham even with a fraction of the funding.

Agreed Maldonado is a toolbag, wish they had kept Senna instead, he really did have some potential, maybe never a championship contender but definitely a race winner and consistent point scorer. The way he got shuttled around though I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't great to work with or not good at development. I also miss Heikki but his time was definitely run out...

I'd be curious as to who could set a better lap time, a human or a computer... I'm sure given the time and money a computer could maximize performance but there are so many variables and so much equipment I bet there would be a weight penalty as well as that special human factor in a heads up race.

[rice_classic]

Most under rated driver on the grid IMO and he needs a proper ride.

Oh please Lotus, pick up the HULK!

[GTB/ZR-1]

^^^

Not a misstep from him w/ all that pressure in Korea--very impressive...

[7thgear]

last night i finally watched race 1 of the 2013 season. This is probably the first time i've ever watched a formula 1 race start to finish.

pureteh interesting... although sometimes i can't figure out if they are speeding the camera's up or the cars really are that fast, in some cases it's almost as if they are overloading the refresh rates of the video recorders. Crazy.

[strat61caster]

Agree on Hulkenburg, if Lotus can field a car as competitive as the one they have now Grosjean and Hulk will have a good shot at scoring their first win next year (if Grosjean doesn't seal the deal this year, entirely possible). I wouldn't be too upset if Massa ended up at Lotus though, as long as Hulkenburg doesn't take another step down next year, he'll get a good ride eventually, maybe even Mclaren.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

last night i finally watched race 1 of the 2013 season. This is probably the first time i've ever watched a formula 1 race start to finish.

pureteh interesting... although sometimes i can't figure out if they are speeding the camera's up or the cars really are that fast, in some cases it's almost as if they are overloading the refresh rates of the video recorders. Crazy.

They're that fast:

http://www.missedshift.com/2011/01/s...s-to-formula1/

[rice_classic]

[cfusionpm]

Vettel was the fastest in FP2 as well as being 2 sec a lap faster than everyone else during the long-term runs on Hard tires at the end. :/

Hopefully the REST of the race is interesting... Vettel already had at least one off at Spoon. Maybe he'll wreck in the race? One can only hope. Looking forward to quali.

[cfusionpm]

Vettel with KERS problems in FP3 and quali. Loses pole to Mark. Interesting. Maybe his traction control system was working overtime in sector 1. :P

Hope his car catches fire tomorrow!

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

Maybe his traction control system was working overtime in sector 1. :P

Hope his car catches fire tomorrow!

I doubt the TC system would offer much on this track as it's "supposedly" works in relation to shock movement and the surface of this track is very smooth unlike a city street circuit.

Assuming of course the system is real eh?

And fingers crossed Webber sticks it to Vettel and either wins or wrecks him!

[GTB/ZR-1]

Wait... Vettel had some bad luck??? lol

GOOD for Webber!