Learning manual, stalled so many times

[gravitylover]

Originally Posted by humfrz

I very rarely wander over to the BRZ part of the forum.

humfrz

Really? You're missing some good entertainment.

[accwai]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

[...] Everybody in my immediate family can. I came to accept early in life that most people can't. It wouldn't surprise me if the 18% estimate was actually too high.

18% sounds quite high. I was invited to Know Your Toyota night at the dealership when I got my 86. During the session, a point was brought up that the warranty doesn't cover consumables. I asked if the clutch is consumable, and the speaker lady was like "Oh, manual. Go ask the service department. Haven't seen one for a very long time myself." Of those in my immediate family, only me and father can drive manual. Very few of father and mother's brother/sister had ever learned manual. They've all been driving automatic now, if they're still driving at all. My wife absolutely refuses to learn it. My dad's 80+ years old and had been driving automatic for the last couple of decades. He's been talking a lot about buying a BRZ lately, but only in automatic.

Looks like this is mostly a North American thing though. Just came back from a two week trip of southern Europe through Greece, Montenegro, Italy, Gibraltar, Spain and France. Majority of the cars there are tiny, which seem to be always manual. During a walking tour in Florence Italy, of the 30+ cars parked on one side of one of the streets, I counted 3 automatic. Everywhere else is similar. And most of these drivers are very crazy. The way they can stuff the car into the most precarious parking spot is amazing. Also check out this video from the Kotor Serpentine in Montenegro:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTpQ7Gxim6w[/ame]


Yup, mostly single lane road that carries two way traffic, with a cliff on one side and a steep drop on the other. You have to be prepared to stop/start and back up at any time on a significant incline. Actually going up the Rock of Gibraltar is worst. The road there is even narrower so a full size tour bus is totally out of the question. Doesn't stop the little things zipping by though... Amazing. Wouldn't mind driving these roads some day, but they're probably way too insane for most of the drivers from around here--the pamphlet for the bus tours even have a thing about not recommended for people with car sickness

[Xxyion]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I have no problem with it. Nor do my dad, brother or mom, and nor did either of my grandfathers who taught my parents how to drive. The time you need the most clutch control is in stop and go traffic, and I have enough control there that I find it easier to drive a manual in heavy traffic than an automatic. Sounds to me like you have weak upper thigh muscles if you can't control the clutch with your heel off the floor.

Just for shits and giggles, just now when I was out driving to the grocery store I tried using just my ankle. I physically couldn't do it, not because of muscle control but because the range of motion required to fully depress the clutch was longer than my ankle will bend. If I slide my heel forward enough to push the clutch to the firewall, I still have to lift my leg to go to the dead pedal, or I'm left riding the clutch. And I don't have particularly stiff ankles. I know this from flexibility training with other people.

That got me to thinking. I have never had any issue at all with the clutch in this car and have never understood all the whining about the soft feeling or the bite point. It has always felt just fine to me. But I would have a very serious problem with the bite point if I were using the pedals wrong and leaving my heel on the floor. It also occurred to me that this is probably the source of all the failed throwout bearings and shift forks, where people are riding the clutch because they're too lazy to pick up their feet.

So when we have the newbies having such trouble learning to drive stick, I wonder if it's because they're developing the lazy habit of riding along with their heel dug into the floor where they don't have sufficient unencumbered range of motion to properly operate the clutch. It would explain so much.

You also need to consider anatomy of people however. For me I have to use the heel technique. My foot is considerably longer than most due to a genetic condition I have. So planting my heel on the floor is the most comfortable way for me to use the clutch and I get the full range of motion as well.

Granted there are exceptions. Like when I'm on a backroad or purposefully shifting quicker I dont plant my heel. But that requires less precise clutch work. I only really plant my heel in traffic, parking lots, and city driving.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This whole thread is freakin' hilarious.

The internets, where everyone is an expert and everyone has more knowledge than everyone else!

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by ermax

Anyone who uses their ankle has to be a fat ass. Hahaha.

On the contrary. At 6' and 290 lbs, I'm a fat ass.

But my muscles are not so weak that I can't lift my left leg without it being too wobbly to control the clutch.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

On the contrary. At 6' and 290 lbs, I'm a fat ass.

But my muscles are not so weak that I can't lift my left leg without it being too wobbly to control the clutch.

Cool

Put a little thought into the human anatomy though. Think about the function of your upper leg vs the function of the ankle, it's fairly obvious why small smooth movements aren't as easy with your upper leg vs the ankle.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by ermax

Put a little thought into the human anatomy though. Think about the function of your upper leg vs the function of the ankle, it's fairly obvious why small smooth movements aren't as easy with your upper leg vs the ankle.

I don't accept that that's necessary.

The clutch is not a precision instrument. It's a blunt object intended to be engaged and disengaged quickly and smoothly. Smooth takeoff has to do with simultaneous application of power. Smooth shifts have to do with matching engine RPM to the gear.

I can easily hold my leg at the bite point for an extended period of time, but why sit there burning the clutch? There's no reason to be making small adjustments to the clutch if you get off it reasonably quickly as it's designed to be used. These small movements you keep talking about don't really make any sense and sound more like you're burning up your clutch slipping the hell out of it when there's no reason to do so.

I can see how a noob might think he needs some special loving relationship with the clutch while trying to learn to balance it with the accelerator. But the key to smooth takeoffs has nothing to do with fine clutch control and everything to do with coordinating left foot and right foot. It's not until you get over the obsession with the clutch that you actually learn to take off smoothly.

To tie this back into the topic of this thread: I don't do anything different with my clutch foot when taking off uphill. I give it a little more power to balance the weight of the vehicle. The clutch pedal still moves out at the same speed, and I take off as if I'm sitting on flat ground. Everybody is way overthinking it.

After writing that last paragraph, it just occurred to me what Nutrivce and most people who have trouble with hill starts are doing wrong. They're Charles Barkleying their takeoff. When Charles Barkley plays golf, he overthinks his swing, hesitates in the middle and screws it up. What he should do instead is just swing and accept what he gets, then try to change it next time if he gets it wrong. Same with the hill starts. Y'all are overthinking it, hesitating, pausing your clutch foot and throwing off the coordination with the accelerator when you should just swing for the green and learn from what you get.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-_Oji3mLV4[/ame]

[ermax]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I don't accept that that's necessary.

The clutch is not a precision instrument. It's a blunt object intended to be engaged and disengaged quickly and smoothly. Smooth takeoff has to do with simultaneous application of power. Smooth shifts have to do with matching engine RPM to the gear.

I can easily hold my leg at the bite point for an extended period of time, but why sit there burning the clutch? There's no reason to be making small adjustments to the clutch if you get off it reasonably quickly as it's designed to be used. These small movements you keep talking about don't really make any sense and sound more like you're burning up your clutch slipping the hell out of it when there's no reason to do so.

I can see how a noob might think he needs some special loving relationship with the clutch while trying to learn to balance it with the accelerator. But the key to smooth takeoffs has nothing to do with fine clutch control and everything to do with coordinating left foot and right foot.

I'm 41 and been racing since I was 17. I've never burnt up a clutch. I've never even worn out a clutch. I have destroyed pressure plates due to them having weak drive straps. I suspect your actually the noob who will come back in 15 years to read this thread and laugh at how immature you were. Don't feel bad though, I have gone back and read old threads of mine from when I first started autoxing and thought I was an expert too and thought if someone didn't do something my way it was the wrong way. I never threw out insults though. My mommy taught me better then that.

[Tcoat]

Amazing that everybody does exactly the same movements no matter how they are driving. I paid special attention to what I did this weekend and found that sometimes I pivot the ankle, sometimes I use the whole leg and most of the time I use some combination of the two. It all depends on what goal is at that point in driving.


Soooo...

[Xxyion]

[QUOTE=Tcoat;3129521]Amazing that everybody does exactly the same movements no matter how they are driving. I paid special attention to what I did this weekend and found that sometimes I pivot the ankle, sometimes I use the whole leg and most of the time I use some combination of the two. It all depends on what goal is at that point in driving.


I'd be willing to bet extrashaky uses his heel a lot more than he thinks he does. Theres literally no reason why you would want to lift your entire leg just to use the clutch. its not even about control at that point thats just plain efficiency. Like I'm sorry I'm not going to lift my leg up to the steering wheel every single time I want to clutch. That just seems needless and an extra waste of energy and effort.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Xxyion

I'd be willing to bet extrashaky uses his heel a lot more than he thinks he does.

Nope. I'm certain. My foot is either on the clutch or it's on the dead pedal. When my foot is on the clutch, I have my leg raised so that I have the full range of motion available. My heel doesn't sit on the floor.

Furthermore, I have a calcium deposit on my heel that doesn't like pressure on it. I would definitely know if I were resting my heel on the floor.

Originally Posted by Xxyion

Theres literally no reason why you would want to lift your entire leg just to use the clutch.

There are at least three very good reasons:

1. You're not as likely to develop the lazy habit of riding the clutch in between shifts.

2. You're not as likely to catch your heel on the carpet. I can drive this car in steel toed work boots.

3. Since lifting your leg promotes a quick and decisive clutch movement, you're not as likely to develop a bad habit of slipping the clutch when it isn't necessary.

Originally Posted by Xxyion

its not even about control at that point thats just plain efficiency.

Seems to me it's more efficient to shift and get off the clutch rather than riding along with your heel dug into the floor.

[HKz]

hmm lol I tend to do both so what does that say about me? I usually use my whole leg when I'm going WoT and shifting quickly (getting on/off freeway) whereas around town I use my ankle/heel to modulate the clutch.. It doesn't seem to make a difference to me.

[Xxyion]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Nope. I'm certain. My foot is either on the clutch or it's on the dead pedal. When my foot is on the clutch, I have my leg raised so that I have the full range of motion available. My heel doesn't sit on the floor.

Furthermore, I have a calcium deposit on my heel that doesn't like pressure on it. I would definitely know if I were resting my heel on the floor.



There are at least three very good reasons:

1. You're not as likely to develop the lazy habit of riding the clutch in between shifts.

2. You're not as likely to catch your heel on the carpet. I can drive this car in steel toed work boots.

3. Since lifting your leg promotes a quick and decisive clutch movement, you're not as likely to develop a bad habit of slipping the clutch when it isn't necessary.



Seems to me it's more efficient to shift and get off the clutch rather than riding along with your heel dug into the floor.

I'm curious where on your foot you push down on the clutch. When I want to use the clutch, I place my heel, push down with the ball of my foot, and then step off while applying appropriate throttle. There is literally no dragging of the heel and I dont ride the clutch at all.

I as well can drive this car in steel toed boots, or sandals, or bare feet, or costume boots in various shapes and sizes.

Its possible you are also thinking way too hard into this heel thing. And it would make sense since you physically cannot use your heel due to your calcium deposit which sounds like it might cause pain.

However you cannot take your adaptation of a medical condition that you have, and claim that it is a superior driving technique to people who do not suffer from this. Its like saying I'm missing my right arm and therefor have a mod where I can shift with my shoulder, is the most efficient way to shift because all I have to do is press a button and that everyone else is doing it wrong.

[ST185RC]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzLjZWrpzmQ[/ame]

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