Engine Braking

[Ocala FR-S]

Originally Posted by jmaryt

pure crap! if you know how and when to utilize compression of the engine to brake,you should never lose control,just don't use too low a gear,and you shouldn't lose control.it's a "good " idea on a regular basis ,it DOES save wear on your brakes,and the engine being under "load" is normal,because it's engineered,and functions normally under "load" you are correct in saying it is helpful when descending,as the engines' compression (braking effect) will help slow the vehicle to maintain control,AND lessen wear on the brakes.in everyday driving,it is indeed beneficial,and again,reduces wear on the brakes. have driven stick for over 40 years,and i consider myself a skilled 'stick" i ALWAYS utilize compression of the engine to slow the vehicle,and consider it part of my everyday driving.my cars have lasted on average 200,000 miles or better with zero engine issues whatsoever!

Maybe its my 10 years of driving an 85 MR2 manual transmisson like I stole it that leads me to my experience in these matters. I learned the hard way that vehicle handling at the limits can be very sensitive to trailing throttle understeer even upsetting vehicle stability in a straight line. Using your engine to save your brakes is unecessarily risky and not worth saving brake pads. The FR-S is not as tail happy as the MR2, but enough so that I won't be progressively downshifting to supplement braking.

In the context of the original post. Progressive downshifting and engine braking on freeway off ramps and the like is just asking for trouble. Releasing the throttle smoothly, braking down to the desired speed, shifting to the desired gear and accelerating from there is how it's done. Engine braking as a substitute for brakes is pure crap. Good luck.

[Ocala FR-S]

Originally Posted by ZDan

To be clear, engine braking is what happens when you are driving properly, always having the transmission in gear and clutch engaged while driving. Any time you're off the gas, you'll get "engine braking".

So will hitting the brakes while cornering! Why would you do that?

Please note, engine braking is what happens when you lift off the gas when driving properly (everyday, performance, track driving, whatever). That doesn't mean that you are relying on the engine to slow the car, and it doesn't mean you should lift off the gas in a curve!

That said, of course you can use the throttle to point the car while cornering. But don't make the newb mistake of the BIG LIFT off the gas midcorner if things get sketchy. Instant spin...

"Engine braking" doesn't contribute enough to substantially change front/rear braking bias in most cases. Even in the pouring rain, I've *never* had rear lockup issues due to engine braking, in any conditions. Proper performance driving you will experience engine braking. But you're not using it to slow the car substantially. It is simply a consequence of keeping the car in gear, clutch engaged at all times.


If you need to, of course! But with the transmission in gear and clutch engaged. Not coasting in neutral or with the clutch disengaged, at least not until you're nearly stopped.

Its' worth repeating: you don't rely on engine braking to take the place of using the brakes.

We are in agreement more than it seems. I wouldn't coast in neutral or brake in turns. The OP engine brakes on off ramps, not always a straight line. They really shouldn't. I've been there in an MR2 with all the newby mistakes until I fully learned the counterintuitive practice of maintaining throttle to get out of trouble (lifting in turns to stay on the road works in old understeering Camaros and such). When people start talking about engine braking as a practice, I assume they mean more than the incidental deceleration when smoothly releasing the throttle in the current gear and rather they are using the engine in place of the brakes. Bad news.

[Wattage]

I dont really try to use engine braking in place of the brakes, i agree it doesnt make sense to spend extra effort to save the brakes. Part of my motovation for asking the question is that before the FRS i exclusively drove automatics. On an off-ramp leaving a highway in an automatic you need to use the brakes a fair bit, but in the FRS it feels like engine braking takes care of most of the slowing down. Im thinking of an offramp that is rather long, on shorter ones i use the brakes a lot.

Im also thinking of lower speed traffic. Typically, in an automatic i would coast a lot when coming to a row of stopped cars rather than get right up to them and wait (in a sense, preserving my momentum). Of course doing this in a standard means either giving it a little throttle, or engine braking and then using brakes to actually stop.

I wouldnt say im downshifting with the intent of getting a lot of engine braking, but i try to get into whatever gear is appropriate for the speed im at and want to be at. Using my example of a hwy offramp, basically i will be going 100 - 120 kph in 5th or 6th gear. I want to end up in 3rd assuming i dont need to come to a stop. I go 5 - 4 - 3, rev matching in between, and basically engine brake until i need to use the brakes. Using the brakes during the 5 - 4 - 3 shifting period would slow me down waaay too fast... unless of course i need to slow down that fast.

The thing that finally motivated me to make this thread is i was looking at instructional videos on heel toe shifting. Some guy in a lotus in the video says "NEVER engine brake, it is horrible and wrong". I did some research to figure out if he was right, and kept finding conflicting info.

What i have learned from this thread is it is fine for my car with proper shifting, but dont over rely on it and dont have the mentality of "trying to save the brakes".

[strat61caster]

I coast when I can in an appropriate gear, it saves gas and wear and tear on the car as opposed to "stop and go, mash the pedals!!!" that is prevalent in California traffic.

You guys are getting worked up over semantics:
Some guys see engine braking as downshifting putting the engine at redline so it's doing practically as much work as the brakes. Don't try to be racing heroes on public roads.
That's a no-no.
On the track, passable if you're practiced.

Others are just talking about coasting down to an appropriate speed and keeping the car in gear when it is appropriate; totally cool as long as you're not giving the guy behind you a heart attack. I usually don't call this engine breaking because it starts threads like this.

Use your head, drive smooth, drive safe.

[carbonBLUE]

1. Right Gear
You should be in the proper gear at all times when driving a manual


2. Conserves Brake Pads
My grandparents own a 98 Chevy S10 (fishing truck) and they are at 197k miles on the original pads... go figure...


3. Extra Wear On Clutch?
Not really, i went to 152k miles (in my last car) heel toe downshifting every gear every time i came to a stop and the clutch was still fine. Even after it had been burnt badly by the service techs at Toyota just trying to get an oil change done and to run a diagnostics

4. Sounds cool?
If you have an exhaust, it makes a pleasant noise blipping the throttle and going into a lower gear, satisfaction rating: 10

5. Is It Proper?
Yes, this is how a manual should be driven in the first place anyways, regardless of what others say...

[WingsofWar]

hmm...interesting thread. I think there is a bit of discrepancy between what is considered engine breaking and rev-matching.

Engine Breaking from my understanding is using the engine and drivetrain as a primary method of slowing down a vehicle.

Example:In the FRS and cruising at 60mph @ 6th gear, you attempt to slow the car down to 35mph. You downshift to 5th putting the primary strain on the transmission, clutch, driveshaft, diff, to slow a 2800lbs car to 35mph. Then to 4th, then 3rd, effectively forcing the engines load to rise higher and into compressor operation to meet the demands of each gear ratio per speed.

Rev-matching to my understanding is still using the brakes as the primary method of slowing/stopping a vehicle. but as RPMS fall, so does wheel speed, allowing you to downshifting to lower gears to meet wheel speed demands.

Example: Same senario, in the FRS going 60mph @ 6th gear, You get off the gas to use the brakes which take the blunt of the strain to slow 2800lbs of car going 60mph. As you approach 50mph your engine speed also slows in relation, allowing you to blip the throttle to raise rpms to match the next lower gear set, putting no strain on the transmission, engine, or clutch, when you downshift to 5th to be in the appropriate rev range per vehicle speed, and then to 4th, using the same method, and then to 3rd.

I don't consider rev-matched downshifts part of engine breaking process even if it is in compressor operation. Similar to how if your in going 90mph in 6th gear @ 6000rpm and then let off the throttle allowing the engine to go into compressor operation. Your engine isn't exactly slowing the car down, its more due to the lack of propulsion to fight friction.

IMO engine breaking is bad in theory, your putting more stress on moving objects than it should. IRL the durability of said parts have a pretty high yield of stress and wont see any real damage unless you do it repeatedly over long periods of time. But regardless your risk % in damaging those parts does go up. To me id like to minimize the risk as much as possible but still retain proper operation. So i stay away from engine breaking.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by ZDan

"Neutral" isn't a gear!

Yes, but you knew exactly what I was talking about didn't you?

I like on F1 broadcasts where they say.. "His car has slowed, it looks like he has a box full of neutrals!"

Originally Posted by ZDan

It is a great way to stay in heel/toe rev-matching practice, and it's also a good way to be able to immediately respond if the red light turns green before you come to a stop!

Well then I'll just happily agree to disagree. Even if the light does change right before you stop, just plop it in 2nd and carry on. Still seems wasteful, still is wasteful even if you're tranny still lasts for a million miles. It's all just six of one and half a dozen of the other at this point.

Heel-toe practice in every day driving.. when you're first learning, sure. When you already know how to do it.. nah. And here's why.

Heel-toeing for the person who's already developed the skill, is significantly different on the track than in DD'ing. Thus constant practice in an environment which is different than what the technique is properly used in, is not "proper practice". I could go without driving a car for years, show up to the track one day and still remember how to heel-toe... Doing it at every stop light is well, wasteful, regardless of how many miles are on your transmission. But, if it's fun, then that's different altogether... Have fun by all means.

What I recommend for daily driving is double clutching. It's an even more difficult technique, you can use it all day long in daily driving and it absolutely increases the lifespan of your transmission. I Heel-toe at the race track and double clutch while daily driving. Give it a shot, you might like it.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Yes, but you knew exactly what I was talking about didn't you?

I like on F1 broadcasts where they say.. "His car has slowed, it looks like he has a box full of neutrals!"



Well then I'll just happily agree to disagree. Even if the light does change right before you stop, just plop it in 2nd and carry on. Still seems wasteful, still is wasteful even if you're tranny still lasts for a million miles. It's all just six of one and half a dozen of the other at this point.

Heel-toe practice in every day driving.. when you're first learning, sure. When you already know how to do it.. nah. And here's why.

Heel-toeing for the person who's already developed the skill, is significantly different on the track than in DD'ing. Thus constant practice in an environment which is different than what the technique is properly used in, is not "proper practice". I could go without driving a car for years, show up to the track one day and still remember how to heel-toe... Doing it at every stop light is well, wasteful, regardless of how many miles are on your transmission. But, if it's fun, then that's different altogether... Have fun by all means.

What I recommend for daily driving is double clutching. It's an even more difficult technique, you can use it all day long in daily driving and it absolutely increases the lifespan of your transmission. I Heel-toe at the race track and double clutch while daily driving. Give it a shot, you might like it.

exactly! i find it funny when the people i ride with, heel-toe into every intersection thinking they are hot shit. But IRL they are doing it wrong especially considering majority of the time its low speed operations. Heel-toe isnt about slowing down a car, its about anticipating what gear and RPM you need to get the best acceleration based on your hypothesis of the wheel speed you are GOING to be in.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

What I recommend for daily driving is double clutching. It's an even more difficult technique,

And wholly unnecessary...

[gmookher]

indeed
tho heel toe is something every drive needs to master

[DarkSunrise]

Driving on the street, I:

- heel-toe before turns
- do not heel-toe approaching a stop sign or signal, unless turning green
- do not double-clutch unless I have to (i.e., transmission is cold).

Personally I don't think it makes a huge difference either way. I highly doubt anyone's ever been an accident because they weren't in the right gear before a turn or approaching a signal. I mainly do it out of personal preference and it keeps me entertained.

[Braces]

My points based on 40 yrs of driving manuals.

1. "Aggressive" engine braking is not necessary and common sense would indicate that you are placing more stress on the mechanicals.

2. When slowing to a stop ... I use the brake to slow the car and gently downshift .... hitting whatever lower gears are appropriate.

3. When slowing in traffic .... I engine brake ... until I need to use the brakes.

4. Brake pads are cheap and I would not change my driving habits to prolong the life of brake pads.

5. As with the aural thrill of accelerating to 7400 RPMS ... I also like to hear the motor as it decelerates through proper downshifting.

Just my .02

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

- do not heel-toe approaching a stop sign or signal, unless turning green

cant think of an instance where you would want to heel-toe at an approaching standing red light. If your coasting while in gear your engine speed should still be low enough to just blip the throttle and switch to the next lowest gear when the light turns green before the stop. No reason to hit the brakes just to hit the next gear. Unless your approaching a standing light at 60mph and plowing through gears after some seriously late breaking, but thats just completely wreckless.

I feel like everyone in this thread is in powerband when the talk about "driving normally". Who here keeps their car 5000-7000rpms while trying to come to a stop? eg: "Oh no im coming to a stop, but im going 35mph on throttle in 4th gear at 6000rpm, i better downshift to 3rd to keep my revs up when i hit 25mph, then to 2nd when i hit 15mph, you know just to be sure if the light turns green i can full sprint out of the intersection"

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

cant think of an instance where you would want to heel-toe at an approaching standing red light. If your coasting while in gear your engine speed should still be low enough to just blip the throttle and switch to the next lowest gear when the light turns green before the stop. No reason to hit the brakes just to hit the next gear. Unless your approaching a standing light at 60mph and plowing through gears after some seriously late breaking, but thats just completely wreckless.

Yeah the only time I've found it useful is if I'm using my brakes to slow the last 15-20 ft and the light suddenly turns green. I still need to hold the brake pedal because I'm moving at a faster rate than the slowly accelerating car (moving from a stop) in front, but I don't want to be stuck at 15 mph accelerating in 4th/5th/6th when I get off the brake pedal. So I'll do a small heel-toe into 2nd to be in the right gear for when I come off the brake pedal.