twins vs last gen cayman?

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I agree with all of these statements but one thing to keep in mind when thinking about the 718's flat 4 turbo is potential with just a tune.

I haven't looked into what tuning there is for them but generally a factory turbo car will make pretty impressive gains with just a tune and even more with exhaust components whereas a NA car will struggle to get very much from it.

Meh, I'll take a healthy NA 6 cylinder over a high-strung 4 cylinder any day.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I agree with all of these statements but one thing to keep in mind when thinking about the 718's flat 4 turbo is potential with just a tune.

I haven't looked into what tuning there is for them but generally a factory turbo car will make pretty impressive gains with just a tune and even more with exhaust components whereas a NA car will struggle to get very much from it.

Unlike a Subaru, Porsche replacement engines and transmissions are obscenely expensive. $15-20k for an engine, $10k for a transmission - roughly speaking. Sure they're strong, but personally I wouldn't crank up the boost like it's some inexpensive (relative) Japanese manufacturer engine.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I haven't looked into what tuning there is for them but generally a factory turbo car will make pretty impressive gains with just a tune and even more with exhaust components whereas a NA car will struggle to get very much from it.

Have you ever owned a car with the boost cranked up?

imho it's not all it's cracked up to be, yeah the dyno numbers look impressive but the lack of responsiveness is underwhelming to me. Riding the 'boost wave of torque/power' is certainly fun but that's not what I enjoy out of a car and certainly not what I would buy a Porsche for (despite the 930's reputation).

If I ever own a turbo car I probably won't do more than a catback exhaust, which on some cars opens up a noticeable amount of power.

[Detroiter]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Have you ever owned a car with the boost cranked up?

imho it's not all it's cracked up to be, yeah the dyno numbers look impressive but the lack of responsiveness is underwhelming to me. Riding the 'boost wave of torque/power' is certainly fun but that's not what I enjoy out of a car and certainly not what I would buy a Porsche for (despite the 930's reputation).

If I ever own a turbo car I probably won't do more than a catback exhaust, which on some cars opens up a noticeable amount of power.

Yes I have, Prior to owning my FRS I had a Audi A4 with the 1.8t. Stock the car is sluggish as hell and no fun to drive at all. and with 170chp 170ctq how could it be. But with just a tune on a otherwise stock car it bumped it to 215chp and 250ctq. And the actual gains were under the curve. The car now made peak torque around 2.5k rpms and held it all the way to 5k. It was 1000 times better than the stock car and was by far a much greater difference than my FRS going from stock to e85 header tune with full exhuast.

That wasn't even the end of it as just by putting in a cat delete, bigger injectors, and an e85 tune the tuner quoted it as making 250chp and over 300ctq now if a 80hp and 130tq bump from very simple bolt ons and tune aren't impressive I don't know what you will think is.

[Detroiter]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Unlike a Subaru, Porsche replacement engines and transmissions are obscenely expensive. $15-20k for an engine, $10k for a transmission - roughly speaking. Sure they're strong, but personally I wouldn't crank up the boost like it's some inexpensive (relative) Japanese manufacturer engine.

I completely understand this. That is why you don't go crazy putting a big turbo on one. A reflash tune from a reputable and top of the line tuner will not cause any issues. It's the same as with any car. The tuner has tested the limits of stock equipment and will dial it back for a safe and enjoyable upgrade.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Yes I have, Prior to owning my FRS I had a Audi A4 with the 1.8t. Stock the car is sluggish as hell and no fun to drive at all. and with 170chp 170ctq how could it be. But with just a tune on a otherwise stock car it bumped it to 215chp and 250ctq. And the actual gains were under the curve. The car now made peak torque around 2.5k rpms and held it all the way to 5k. It was 1000 times better than the stock car and was by far a much greater difference than my FRS going from stock to e85 header tune with full exhuast.

That wasn't even the end of it as just by putting in a cat delete, bigger injectors, and an e85 tune the tuner quoted it as making 250chp and over 300ctq now if a 80hp and 130tq bump from very simple bolt ons and tune aren't impressive I don't know what you will think is.

I don't doubt the gainz bro

I doubt how rewarding and fun it is to drive around a corner when you've got monster lag to get back to maximum power.

[venturaII]

If it's the stock turbo, there's no more lag with an aggressive tune than there was when everything was 100% stock. In fact, there may be less. There may be more perception of lag simply because running more boost results in higher peak power, but there's no reason running more pressure from the same compressor would somehow result in more lag.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by venturaII

There may be more perception of lag simply because running more boost results in higher peak power,

Yes, that is what I mean, I don't find that an enjoyable experience, while I know many seem happy with that kind of setup it doesn't please me and I know there are a few who agree.

There's no lag to the original boost/power levels, but you've likely upgraded the grip available as well which means that no-lag to stock boost/power is irrelevant, it's now the lag to the increased power that's of concern. It takes longer to spool to the new maximum boost than the old maximum boost, you can't break the laws of physics no matter how good the tune is.

Edit: A different driving style makes this not a problem, early back to the gas, left foot braking while still on the gas to keep the boost up, whatever, I just don't really like it. Some do, that's fine, but I bought into the hype of 'just crank up the boost, it's great!' until I tried to drive fast with a car tuned like that. I just didn't really like it and I think it's worth asking when someone starts beating that drum. It's one of the reasons I'm very happy with my FR-S.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Yes, that is what I mean, I don't find that an enjoyable experience, while I know many seem happy with that kind of setup it doesn't please me and I know there are a few who agree.

There's no lag to the original boost/power levels, but you've likely upgraded the grip available as well which means that no-lag to stock boost/power is irrelevant, it's now the lag to the increased power that's of concern. It takes longer to spool to the new maximum boost than the old maximum boost, you can't break the laws of physics no matter how good the tune is.

Edit: A different driving style makes this not a problem, early back to the gas, left foot braking while still on the gas to keep the boost up, whatever, I just don't really like it. Some do, that's fine, but I bought into the hype of 'just crank up the boost, it's great!' until I tried to drive fast with a car tuned like that. I just didn't really like it and I think it's worth asking when someone starts beating that drum. It's one of the reasons I'm very happy with my FR-S.

I think, I've finally decided to boost the Fr-s and you post this...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

I think, I've finally decided to boost the Fr-s and you post this...

Well my experience isn't in an FA20, just because I'm not a huge fan of boost doesn't mean you won't be, and my experience is primarily turbo based, supers may be up my alley. Best of luck.

[Detroiter]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I don't doubt the gainz bro

I doubt how rewarding and fun it is to drive around a corner when you've got monster lag to get back to maximum power.

Okay I get what your saying now. Yes a turbo car can have a noticeable amount of lag depending on the size of the turbo to displacement. From my experience in the B6 A4 came with one of the smallest turbo's in existence and spooled essentially instantly. As long as I was above 2.5k I would mash the throttle and instantly feel the torque. The lag that was there I'd equate to the instant you hit the pedal I had 85% of torque, then that last 15% would come in over a short 1/4 - 1/2 second period.

I actually think it equates very well to a motor like the fa20 where all the power is at redline. Rather than feeling the power build as you push to the limiter you feel it build in the mid range just quickly and then it eventually dies off up top (downside of a small fast spooling turbo). At least in my driving it was felt like a similar sensation especially with slightly bigger turbo like in my friends sti. The longer amount of lag allowed the torque to build up in a natural and smooth way just like a high sprung NA motor just earlier on in the power band.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Well my experience isn't in an FA20, just because I'm not a huge fan of boost doesn't mean you won't be, and my experience is primarily turbo based, supers may be up my alley. Best of luck.

What you wrote rings true to my ears. Unfortunately, I still feel the car is lacking, just a tad...I'm not sure if a header/tune will get it where I'd like it to be. The only way to find out is to go for it. I should go test drive a MY17/18 first.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by perryair

for anyone who changed from a twin over to a last generation cayman (not the s), how do you find the difference in driving experience? it seems like it would be somewhat familiar, with 275 hp and 213 tq - that youd need to wring the power out in revs and that you'd really have fun throwing it around corners. and certainly its a more expensive car, but a few year old model is around the price of most new entry level luxury sedans/crossovers these days..

i really enjoy my brz and it provides tons of joy, but just thinking of what the next car will be when it comes time!

Just remember to consider running and maintenance cost.

For example, for this same pricing, you can get a c5z06. In general, it is cheap to maintain. However, compared to a BRZ, the amount of oil used, clutch reservoir maintenance and 3x more expensive tires make the running costs far exceed the BRZ.

Also, while I don't have direct experience with the Cayman, I am going to assume the gearing per gear is very wide. This just means the experience you are going to get on the street is going to be very different. All the updated power you aren't really going to be able to use.... or be able to use legally for long. This is something you have to do beyond the honeymoon-phase to understand what the difference really means.

Good luck in your quest.

2013 Boxster S
Ratio. Max speed (rpm)
3.91:1 44mph (7800)
2.29:1 75mph (")
1.65:1 104mph (")
1.30:1 132mph (")
1.08:1 159mph (")
0.88:1 172mph (6850)
0.62:1 172mph (4825)

LSD diff
Final drive ratio: 3.89:1

[Deep Six]

I'd be curious to see the dyno curves overlaid between the 718 and 981. I would imagine the difference in low and mid range torque would be substantial. Whether or not you care for the aural aspects of the modern turbo 4's you can't deny the improvement in acceleration capability. Lap time magazine comparisons really illustrate the difference.


Lighting Lap:


2014 Cayman S 3:02.6
2917 Cayman S 2:58.3


2017 Honda Civic Si 3:14.6
2017 BRZ 3:19.7


Tuning just increases the disparity if you are willing to roll the dice. I have an APR tune on my wife's TTS and the car runs 0-60 in 3.8 seconds on a V box and will pull bus lengths on my supercharged FRS. Honestly I'd love to have the power delivery from my Audi 2.0l available in the Scion.