How common is torque dip?

[PetrolioBenzina]

"Torque-dip" threads are always fun to read. Learn how to drive around it, or fix it. Neither one of those are very hard to do, and one is even free.

[Detroiter]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

1. IIRC, the driver of the Hellcat wasn't even trying to get a fast lap time. There are plenty of modern muscle cars that will outperform an 86 on the track these days.

In the video they state that he was in fact trying to set the fastest lap time he could and that while he is no professional race driver he does drive very fast cars and review them for a living.

I believe it any day that the 86 and mx-5 would beat a hellcat charger on the track. There is just no way to make a 4,500lb monster with 707hp go around corners fast. Especially on the ridiculously narrow 275 tires they come with. It's not any surprise that it would spin the back out on every corner.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

1. IIRC, the driver of the Hellcat wasn't even trying to get a fast lap time. There are plenty of modern muscle cars that will outperform an 86 on the track these days.

2. You talk about how the torque dip doesn't matter, yet you have a supercharger installed on your car. Obviously you felt the need to spend 5k to get more power.

Hellcat is so hard to handle especially on a slow (twisty) track. I agree that there are tracks that it can beat any 86 easily. You are right, even at that twisty track, a Mustang GT could be better. The point is not the power though, the result underlines where 86/BRZ shine. Missing all the good qualities of its design and complaining where the car is weak is not really smart. This is a sub $30K car after all. It is not possible to check all boxes. That is called a Porsche.

Torque dip really doesn't matter and you can see that in my preference in the SC kit. I didn't care about instant torque, otherwise I would have chosen a twin-screw kit. Especially to keep the rev-up-to-get-power character of this sports car, I went with a Rotrex kit. You cannot really tell the car is supercharged at 1500 rpm. I still need to down-shift to quickly reach the powerful rpm range. The car has essentially the same character as stock. Power curve has just a steeper ascent. Even with a supercharger, I am telling you guys that torque dip doesn't matter.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by etherdude

My use of the gears:

1st - From a stop to 15 (nanny mode) or 35 (gonzo mode)
2nd - Accelerate up to 35 (nanny mode) or up to 55 (gonzo mode)
3rd - Constant speed at 25 mph (nanny mode) or stronger acceleration 35-50
4th - Constant speed at 30 mph (nanny mode) or stronger acceleration 45-70+
5th - Cruise at 35-40mph (nanny mode) or stronger acceleration 55 - 70+
6th - Highway cruise 40 and higher, decent acceleration above 70 mph.

Still too high for nanny mode.

1st to 5-8mph
2nd to 15mph
3rd to 25mph
4th to 30mph
5th to 35/40mph

If you turn on the gear shift indicator it suggests roughly these speed or lower.

Simple rule is: Run in the highest gear that will provide the torque you currently need without labouring (lugging) the engine.

As long as you don't need/want to floor it the GT86 has enough torque without lugging to pull gently from 1k rpm. If you want to bury it, aim for 2k+ though.

It can be a little bit hesitant and even stutter if you boot it at 2k, but it smooths out at 2.5k.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by paulca

Still too high for nanny mode.

1st to 5-8mph
2nd to 15mph
3rd to 25mph
4th to 30mph
5th to 35/40mph

This is great if you want to maximize fuel economy, but this is not how the car was intended to be driven whatsoever.

[DarkSunrise]

For anyone bothered by the torque dip, I'd highly recommend trying the FT86SF catted header + tune. I recently switched to that header and the powerband reminds me of older Honda NA engines I've owned. Once the tach hits 3200 RPM, it starts to pull in earnest (unlike the stock header/tune which dips at that point). The engine continues to feel stout up to the 7400 redline.

In daily driving if you decide you want a bit more speed, you can put your foot down and get torque at the point you're expecting it (keeping in mind it's a small NA 2.0L engine). If you've grown up driving naturally aspirated Hondas, it'll feel very familiar.

It's the same header that Todd from Everyday Driver put on his FR-S. I agree with him that if this was the factory setup, few people would complain about the power on the car. Not because it adds so much power up top, but rather it alters the midrange to match what most people were probably expecting from this engine. He talks about it in this video:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9G8zfoW6CI"]Best & Worst of Owning an 86 - Long Term #7 FRS (BRZ/86) - Everyday Driver - YouTube[/ame]

[NOHOME]

Daily driving on surface streets. Shift point is usually 5k. Surface streets where I live and do most of my driving usually move at 40-45 mph

1st to 25 mph
2nd to 40
3rd...skip it altogether.
4th settles in at 3000 and 45 mph. 3000 is usually where I cruise.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

For anyone bothered by the torque dip, I'd highly recommend trying the FT86SF catted header + tune. I recently switched to that header and the powerband reminds me of older Honda NA engines I've owned. Once the tach hits 3200 RPM, it starts to pull in earnest (unlike the stock header/tune which dips at that point). The engine continues to feel stout up to the 7400 redline.

In daily driving if you decide you want a bit more speed, you can put your foot down and get torque at the point you're expecting it (keeping in mind it's a small NA 2.0L engine). If you've grown up driving naturally aspirated Hondas, it'll feel very familiar.

A header would be great, but it's not smog legal in California

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

A header would be great, but it's not smog legal in California

Yeah completely understand it's not going to work for everyone. For those who need to worry about smog legality but want to fill in the torque dip, I think an E85 tune or a CARB-legal supercharger are the only viable solutions.

BTW I like that the FT86SF header is catted. No smells = happy wife = happy life.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

This is great if you want to maximize fuel economy, but this is not how the car was intended to be driven whatsoever.

That's probably true, but really how often do you drive the car the way it's meant to be, aka thrashed?

The gear speeds is roughly what would be expected of you on a driving test here. Reving the car above 4k or even 3k would get you a minor fault. Do it repeatedly and you would fail.

Having done my test years ago, I still drive conservatively about 80% of the time. When I get a nice stretch of open road I red line it in 1st or 2nd, sometimes right to the limiter, but usually on the third beep with the beep set at 7k.

A post above where the poster claims to shift at 5k seemingly everywhere would probably get pulled over eventually here for driving aggressively. rev'ing, especially while accelerating hard turns people heads and they are quite often not turning to think how cool you are, but because they are scared and need to see where the noise is coming from and if they are about to get run over.

We all do it, but please keep it in it's place on the open road away from other road users, away from pedestrians, keep it safe and try and keep it at least semi-legal.

None of us want our insurance going up and up because little Jonny thinks it's cool to red line the car in every gear through every little town with kids out playing.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by paulca

That's probably true, but really how often do you drive the car the way it's meant to be, aka thrashed?

Every single day.

[Decep]

Originally Posted by NOHOME

Daily driving on surface streets. Shift point is usually 5k. Surface streets where I live and do most of my driving usually move at 40-45 mph

1st to 25 mph
2nd to 40
3rd...skip it altogether.
4th settles in at 3000 and 45 mph. 3000 is usually where I cruise.

Cruise, meaning not accelerating, whats the point of cruising at 3000? My car comfortably cruises in 6th gear at about 45mph (just around 2K RPM). If i want to accelerate I can easily downshift a gear (or 3) or just lightly accelerate and be patient.

In fact I wish 6th were a bit taller so the RPMs would come down a smidge at 75mph. The car provides amazing efficiency as it is though, so there's that.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by VoltsFRS2013

Hate to be the party pooper, but if you want to be an asshole on the internet and get technical we can.

An expanded inlet hose with the deletion of the sound tube combined with a performance air filter makes the cars throttle much more touchier than rocking all OEM.

Also, for someone who's never heard a sound clip of my car, that's quite a bias comment to make. What you may consider shitty, I may like.

Lastly. I also did indicate pretty much that my car is near stock, and that not much is done to it and also indicated that my car is still in the torque dip stage which is obvious but maybe your old age got to you and you were a lil to thick to understand that, my bad.

Don't get technical on me grasshopper. I'm sorry I used the word I did. Should have used factual words like different or louder, shitty is a opinion. I'm sorry. I guess I get testy when we break heatwave records here in SJ. However, I do stand by the rest of my statement. The best intake with the best catback with stock tune will change nothing. Same stuff with complete custom tune will maybe get 5-7hp. The torque dip will change slightly as you get the rasp of the cam timing tuned to move probably faster than it was designed to, but hell, we want to go fast...still a dip, or as I call, not yet in the power band of this motor.

Ask me how I know. Been there.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Oh, you-ens ....... I suggest you both take a pill......

@VoltsFRS2013 I figure ol @Sapphireho was ....jest ah messen wich ya.

Sapphireho, if VoltsFRS2013 is happy with his car ...... that would be good .... right .. ?? Didn't your dad ever tell you that putting that chrome acorn air cleaner on your car, didn't make it go no faster .....?? And that that cherry bomb muffler(s) sounded too damn loud .... ??

DANG, VoltsFRS2013, I suggest you not get all twisted out of shape every time an old man pokes at you ...... it's bad for your health ......


humfrz - climbs off his stump .....

Thanks

I actually remember cherry bombs, the muffler and the explosive.