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Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum The place to start for the Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 | GT86


View Poll Results: Best power increase option for GT86
Hybrid GT86 16 9.25%
2.5L Boxer 64 36.99%
2.0L Turbo 60 34.68%
FA20 is fine with me 33 19.08%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-14-2013, 08:42 PM   #43
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The best solution would be FA20 with beefed up internal and strap a VGT on the damn thing.
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:59 PM   #44
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I wouldn't mind the race motor they are using to power the front of the Yaris R concept/prototype - 1.6L Toyota GRE race motor making 300hp and 310ftlb torque...just the motor cost more than it does to buy the FRS...LOL



The Hybrid system on the Yaris R has no batteries either....just uses a super capacitor to act like an electric nitrous system and provide 120 hp/220+lbft instantly to the rear wheels for a 5 second duration in race mode, 10 second boost in street mode at lower power levels, a KERS system just like the LaFerrari and other supercars. Who wouldn't want an instant 120hp/220+lbft boost when going full throttle in an FRS? It corners fast enough...just needs some speed on the straights, which this system would give it. Around a 200 hundred pound weight penalty though....
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:22 PM   #45
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What are we assuming about the 2.0l turbo? Is it a turbo FA20? What about the horsepower and torque specs? MPG?
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:25 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vracer111 View Post

The Hybrid system on the Yaris R has no batteries either....just uses a super capacitor to act like an electric nitrous system and provide 120 hp/220+lbft instantly to the rear wheels for a 5 second duration in race mode, 10 second boost in street mode at lower power levels, a KERS system just like the LaFerrari and other supercars. Who wouldn't want an instant 120hp/220+lbft boost when going full throttle in an FRS? It corners fast enough...just needs some speed on the straights, which this system would give it. Around a 200 hundred pound weight penalty though....
This is one of the more likely scenarios for beefing up the '86 platform. It's also very similar to the Electric supercharger that @Robfts is developing and reporting on in this forum.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:36 PM   #47
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I heard it'd be full DEI.

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Old 09-14-2013, 11:20 PM   #48
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Ehhh????? Look at the La Ferrari, 918 Spyder and P1. Then tell me that hybrid cars are stupid...
I'm not saying hybrid cars are stupid, I'm saying I think the whole concept of a gas burning hybrid is stupid from an attempting-to-not-destroy-the-planet point of view. We're definitely going to run out of oil one day, so let's half-ass it, I say. All electric.

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I think the automotive industry has pretty much admitted that the focus of hybrids is not environmental friendliness anymore, but rather fuel economy...
Yeah, that's why I said I don't blame the makers or the buyers. Some people just want to save money on gas and manufacturers just want to make money off those people. So I'm not really pointing the finger at anybody, but I wish we'd just go ahead and start working on the cars of the future now instead of waiting until gas has been $25/gal for a long time and we're all suffering from it, and THEN start going all electric.

Prevention > reaction

Plus, mass produced electric cars will be at their worst at first, and then get better over time. Obviously. So the sooner the developers turn their full attention to them, the sooner we can have high performance electric cars. I don't want to live in a world where Prius-like cars are the only option.
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:23 PM   #49
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I heard it'd be full DEI.

Now this is a design I can get behind. Look at how simple that is. No excuse for this not being in every car. Perpetual Motion Engine FTW!
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Old 09-15-2013, 02:33 AM   #50
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That all sounds good, but you didn't discuss fuel economy and I can see why... Subaru's 2.0L Direct Injection Turbo gets 23city/28hwy MPG and is only that "good" because it's mated to a CVT. Subaru suggests a 19% increase in fuel economy directly due to the CVT itself. so we're looking more like 19city/24hwy MPG at best with a manual transmission on premium fuel only. Fuel economy has always been one of the many downsides of turbocharging and it remains. The HP and TQ gains are not free.
Oh, Im sorry. I thought we were talking about high performance engines/models, if you want to compromise with fuel economy may I suggest the basic FA20? The brz would probably get over 20/26 with the engines outputs being increased over 50%, 2015 the earliest. When it comes to power you have to pay to play.

Turbos are economical on ranges of (nonperformance) models, you are just ignoring them.
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Old 09-15-2013, 02:45 AM   #51
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Um, no.

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You dont have a turbo problem, you have a BMW problem.
Funny BMW is the most reliable of the DI engines I've owned. Just when something does go wrong it's crazy expensive to fix or BMW designed it to be difficult to work on.
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Old 09-15-2013, 03:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by chulooz View Post
Oh, Im sorry. I thought we were talking about high performance engines/models, if you want to compromise with fuel economy may I suggest the basic FA20? The brz would probably get over 20/26 with the engines outputs being increased over 50%, 2015 the earliest. When it comes to power you have to pay to play.

Turbos are economical on ranges of (nonperformance) models, you are just ignoring them.
What we're talking about are the likely power upgrades for future '86 models. If Toyota is talking hybrid power, do you really think that LOWER mpg is on the table?

IMO even a 19/25 or 20/26 FRS/BRZ is not in the cards for Toyota or Subaru. I'm not ignoring turbocharging, I'm saying it's not probable. There are alternative lower footprint, cost, impact options that could be implemented more quickly than an engine swap to get a turbo in the powerplant.

Like what?
  1. Keeping the engine NA, improving the header and improving the factory tune would remove the torque dip, improve driveability and possibly even MPG.
  2. Do the above and add an electric supercharger (battery or supercapicator powered) could also increase HP and TQ above S2K levels also without sacrificing MPG.
Look around the forums. The answers to increasing power output without major modifications to the car are in them.

What's not likely
  • Anything that requires major retooling at the Subaru Gunma JPN plant
  • Increasing the FA20 displacement beyond 2.0L
  • Replacing the FA20 2 years or even 4 years after initial production run without enough time to test for safety and reliability
  • Any upgrade that could decrease reliability of the FA20 or its' exhaust system (e.g. turbocharging)
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:54 AM   #53
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Ok, I may have gotten a bit excited with the 2.0dit talk, but if toyota comes out with something impressive subaru may get desperate to compete.

Like I said, economy is one of the compromises of performance, people who buy the car for its performance will gladly sacrifice ~6mpg for +50% power . It doesnt take 4 years to swap motors for subaru, it also doesnt mean they would take their fa20 option off the table. There really is no reason for you to keep parroting that turbos decrease reliability, its just not true. The fa20 is NA, do you notice the issues its been having? Some cars just need to have the bugs worked out of them; both NA and FI.

Looking at it all a bit more realistically Subaru might introduce their new 1.6DIT in the BRZ. Subaru is a turbo brand, the BRZ will have a turbo in its future.
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Old 09-15-2013, 11:09 AM   #54
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Everybody will be going hybrid because the latest torque converter automatics can have an electric motor installed in place of the torque converter.

Manual gearboxes are going to disappear.

Higher voltage motors, Li-Po or similar batteries and KERS are going to be on just about everything that moves within five years.

I mean what sportscar owner would turn down a "push to pass" button on his or her steering wheel?
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:33 PM   #55
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Manual gearboxes are going to disappear.
How can you say that when 80% of this cars sales have been in MT? The consumers have spoken.
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:37 PM   #56
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I don't get the negative weight argument for hybrid vs. the support for 6 cylinder? Last time I thought about it, a V6 weighed more than a 4 cylinder! The extra weight on the front would have a significant impact on the weight distribution, that would probably require a rear transaxle to adjust. Both of which would add substantially to cost! Maybe for a supra version, but it would not be light!

Besides, I believe they are talking about capacitors which should be lighter than even the 67lb battery of the Prius C. Granted you do have weight from the electric motor(s), but packaged properly and producing a higher torque to weight ratio, then why couldn't the car still be fun to to drive?
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