BRZ vs Mustang - Here is the review the haters have been waiting for.

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Folks, please stop telling yourselves it "won".

How didn't it win? Both the reviewer basically loved the feel of it way more than the Mustang. How isn't that a win and confirmation of what everyone has been saying about the package from the get-go? I'm really sorry this video crushed your expectations, but most of us actually thought this was a great comparison between a "meat cleaver" and a "scalpel", as you put it.

How was this a win of power over handling? Because a track time told you? If you drive cars based on the Lightning Lap from C&D or some figure-8/slalom figures, then you've missed the point of a driver's car. It has to bring a smile to your face, and the BRZ/FRS has done just that to the journalist and the professional in these videos.

Seriously. I saw the video of the FRS and BRZ vs. the MX5 and it won by a .1 to .2 seconds.

Um.. the final times were separated by 2.6 seconds. What are you smoking?

Same driver, same track -- the BRZ was slaughtered by an ungainly tractor, thanks mainly to the better power to weight ratio. If you care about that sort of thing, it's a depressing, if unsurprising, outcome.

Lap times =/= a good driving experience. It's not that hard to comprehend.

On that note, I'd still rather own a BRZ, and if I felt it needed more power (which I very much do) I'd just plan on saving up to make that happen.

Do you AutoX? Road race? Solo? Because that's the only time lap times will matter, and you'll never be racing a BRZ vs. a Mustang in any sanctioned event I can think of.

[KeepGuessing]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

ok and heres hard facts

the gt86 posted a 1:46:081 with stock tires and a 1:43:439 with race tires thats a 2.642 seconds difference from tires alone, the track is about 13 seconds longer than the streets of willow, both tracks are comparable in how technical they are...

Not to single you out..but how are either of those "Hard Facts"

That's the problems with those types of comparisons.. With traffic on the track, unless we can see all the footage in car (which we don't) theres no way to tell if his "fastest" flying lap was achieved with a faster starting speed etc etc.. That 2~ second lead could be attributed to the fact that he started the lap at 140kph without the 18" tires and 150~kph with the ADVAN's....Which lead to increased entrance and exit speed on the first corner therein setting up a domino affect of sorts from lap to lap.

So while yes there was improvement to be shown, it's ANYTHING but definitive. Not just that..The people who netted the "1.2 seconds apart" lap times of the cars in question...Could be some of the worse drivers in auto-journalistic history..

According to "Motor trends ability to drive cars around The Streets of Willow Springs" race course...
The BRZ they tested, is faster around that course...

Than the e60 M5, The 997 Porsche Turbo, the Ford GT, the C5 z06.....And a plethora of other cars that take more than a weekend trip to the Bounderant racing skill to be able to competently handle.


So this video should really be thrown out based on the fact that data collected by morons is inconclusive at best.

[Xdragonxb0i]

"the end of mankind, will be caused by the egos of human"

At this Point, i been waiting so long on the FRS/BRZ there is no review that will sway my decision to test drive and potentially buy the car within the year. We dont need to justify our buying actions to anyone. If the BRZ/FRS is the car you want buy it. If you want a mustang, buy it.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

Not to single you out..but how are either of those "Hard Facts"

That's the problems with those types of comparisons.. With traffic on the track, unless we can see all the footage in car (which we don't) theres no way to tell if his "fastest" flying lap was achieved with a faster starting speed etc etc.. That 2~ second lead could be attributed to the fact that he started the lap at 140kph without the 18" tires and 150~kph with the ADVAN's....Which lead to increased entrance and exit speed on the first corner therein setting up a domino affect of sorts from lap to lap.

So while yes there was improvement to be shown, it's ANYTHING but definitive. Not just that..The people who netted the "1.2 seconds apart" lap times of the cars in question...Could be some of the worse drivers in auto-journalistic history..

According to "Motor trends ability to drive cars around The Streets of Willow Springs" race course...
The BRZ they tested, is faster around that course...

Than the e60 M5, The 997 Porsche Turbo, the Ford GT, the C5 z06.....And a plethora of other cars that take more than a weekend trip to the Bounderant racing skill to be able to competently handle.


So this video should really be thrown out based on the fact that data collected by morons is inconclusive at best.

All 3 drivers are seasoned race car drivers who have won many races before, trd was a full blown race kit, not suprised it won, second was the base model manual 86 with racing tires , third was an hks tuned 86 but was automatic, automatic known for having longer gears, so no surpise that it was last, those three drivers would give randy a run for his money, also the frs was playing around on its hot lap at willow springs

Also the three cars in the video I posted werent limited by traffic in the third lap because they were in the order from fastest to slowest the car in front was cornering and accelerating faster than the car behind, so at no point did any of the cars stop short or get blocked by any of the other cars in front...

[Allch Chcar]

Guys, the lap time was a clear cut win for the Mustang v6(1.5 seconds is huge) but the BRZ won in the best handling category. So it really depends on which category is more important to you. Some focused on the lap time, others focuses on the handling.

To say the BRZ was outclassed on the track is putting it mildly. I'm hoping the STI version(if it happens) will be more of a track machine but I'm not betting on it besting the Mustang on a track. On a track the Mustang is going to be more at home with the SRA and it's power can really give it an edge over better handling cars.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Guys, the lap time was a clear cut win for the Mustang v6(1.5 seconds is huge)

Yes.

To say the BRZ was outclassed on the track is putting it mildly..

It was outRUN on the track, not outCLASSed. I'd argue the opposite.

Power/weight and tires are easily the two biggest factors in going fast, and the Track Pack Mustang has it over the FR-S/BRZ in both cases.

If it's an outright race on stock as-delivered tires, the Track Pack Mustang WINS.

But for driving enjoyment on the street and at the track, for me the FR-S/BRZ is the clear winner, no contest.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Deslock

It's not just width. The Mustang's 255/40R19 tires have a larger diameter, so in addition to a wider contact patch, the Mustang also has a longer contact patch.

I strongly disagree here. Taller tires don't give a lateral grip advantage.
1. at similar inflation pressures, contact patch area is a function of load. Same make/model tires on these cars, the Mustang will have a larger contact patch for sure, as it's a much heavier car. Contact patch area per car weight will be close to the same.
2. Grip doesn't scale linearly with contact patch area anyway.

Overly large-diameter wheels/tires aren't helping the mustang, they're hurting it (additional unsprung/rotational weight).
It would be measureably faster with 255/40-17s than with the track pack's 255/40-19, I would bet (although there would be other benefits to doing that like better overall gearing and being an inch lower, it would be tricky to separate out the effects of wheel/tire diameter alone).


Stick with my original point: As far as tire sizes go, the Track Pack Mustang doesn't have an advantage. It *does* have a tire advantage, though, Pirelli PZeros vs. "Prius tires":
vs.

On the same make/model tires, FR-S/BRZ should outhandle the Mustang Track Pack.

[KeepGuessing]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

All 3 drivers are seasoned race car drivers who have won many races before, trd was a full blown race kit, not suprised it won, second was the base model manual 86 with racing tires , third was an hks tuned 86 but was automatic, automatic known for having longer gears, so no surpise that it was last, those three drivers would give randy a run for his money, also the frs was playing around on its hot lap at willow springs

Also the three cars in the video I posted werent limited by traffic in the third lap because they were in the order from fastest to slowest the car in front was cornering and accelerating faster than the car behind, so at no point did any of the cars stop short or get blocked by any of the other cars in front...

I was speaking about the terrible driving qualities of the Motor Trend staff..

not the terribly "bias results" BestMOTORing seems to get with all of their track tests..

There is no denying the BM staff's abilities, however they are not the same driver and they are NOT all the same skill level.. All of them having "racing backgrounds" does not mean they are all the same quality driver..

But to reiterate I am speaking about Motor Trend and their inability to drive a car in any manner except shi**y

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I strongly disagree here. Taller tires don't give a lateral grip advantage.
1. at similar inflation pressures, contact patch area is a function of load. Same make/model tires on these cars, the Mustang will have a larger contact patch for sure, as it's a much heavier car. Contact patch area per car weight will be close to the same.

Your wrote "the FR-S/BRZ on 215s has more tire width per weight than the V6 Mustang on 255s". There are many other factors that affect grip, one of them being that bigger tires will also increase contact patch. Obviously there are other advantages to smaller tires; my point was simply that you really can't only look at tire width per weight.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Grip doesn't scale linearly with contact patch area anyway.

I never said it did.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Only in Bizarro world is a more expensive, better engineered yet SLOWER car the winner.

Slower cars often win comparisons like this. It drives bench racers crazy because apparently for some reason they can't comprehend anything other than lap times and numbers.

The MX5 is one of the best reviewed cars ever, having piled up accolades for its fun-to-drive dynamics over the last 23 years. On paper, it looks horrible and on the track it doesn't post especially fast laps. My last three cars destroy my MX5 in a straight line, yet the MX5 is far more fun (top up or down).

The Mustang V6 (with performance package) and V8 are both great bang-for-your-buck cars. Both have done very well on the track, beating much more expensive cars. If you want a new car the track, they can be great choices.

But their shifters are crap (by my standards) and when the road isn't smooth, their suspension and weight really hurt their dynamics. Every car is a compromise and we all have different priorities; test drive before you buy.

[DarkSunrise]

The review is pretty straight-forward IMO. The Track-Pack Mustang put down better lap times and had more power, but the reviewer/Pobst agreed the BRZ was the more rewarding car to drive. That's all it says, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, the BRZ won this "best drivers' car" comparison, but which car you personally prefer will depend on whether you want power/lap times or the better drivers' car. I know which I prefer, but I wouldn't think anyone was an idiot for choosing the other. They're both great cars, just made for different purposes.

[Frost]

Chances are that the BRZ will teach you and make you a better driver than the Mustang can in the same span of time. There's a reason why both reviewers like the BRZ and it's because it is more engaging and thus you tend to learn and become better with it.

I personally love the Mustang - it is such a fun cruiser although I only drove a 2007 V6 auto but it was an enjoyable machine. However, the limits of that car are harder to get to without crossing over it. I haven't driven a BRZ or FR-S (yet) but if it's anything like my old Mister 2, I will learn a lot more from it than I ever did on my IS300 or the 'Stang.

To me, that's the most important - as someone here said, the best mod is the driver mod. 1.5seconds on an 89 second lap is a decent amount but that's a PRO racing both cars - when I hit the track, I highly doubt I'm racing against Pabst-twins all the time and chances are I will probably be able to compete decently well against a 'Stang. That's good enough for me!

So all in all, it's a great comparo and I like the results. If the 'Stang wiped the floor with the BRZ (> 5 secs), then I would be concerned to some degree.

[Spaceywilly]

so does anyone in this thread actually read the previous posts before they reply? people are just saying the same things over and over...

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

The AVG consumer wouldn't look at the SMALL list of "sporty cars" when looking for "sporty cars" though..

If we're considering the AVG consumer to be dumb enough to shop for a v6 mustang..Then it's quite obvious the Avg consumer would also think ANY car that has "sleek design ques" would be a sporty car...

Any car that LOOKS fast would be a sporty car.
Any car with colored stitch and a manual gearbox would be a "Sporty car" to the consumer who looks at a v6 mustang for thrills..

If this were the case then NEITHER of these cars are anywhere CLOSE to the top of that list because then you have to thrown in a bunch of intangible variables that can appear just because of something as simple as " hyundai decided to restyle their c-pillar and people think it's superfast now."


However if you're trying to move away from the "endless variables" of "imaginary consumer Group A" then the only path to stray to would be people who know a v6 mustang is a joke of a car and to compare it to a car which is considered a sports car or is taken seriously in the "sports car world" is downright foolish.

I'm not a Mustang fan but all the negative shit you spew makes no sense. The 2011+ Stangs especially the BOSS have become better handling cars. And it's so funny that you trolled the damn car with a Toyota Camry V6 comparison. You are no better than the Mustang guys who talk shit about the BRZ/FRS. Just listening to your two post makes me sick.