Review of "Track Mode" on the MY17+ cars

[JSube]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

When it does kick in, you never are given the opportunity to learn how to correct it yourself.

And we're fortunate to be driving a car where the engineers were given the freedom to make one of the most responsive chassis in the business, so you can correct a lot of mistakes that would have made you a passenger in other cars

[trippinbillies40]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

When it does kick in, you never are given the opportunity to learn how to correct it yourself.

Agreed. But, I would argue that the level of intrusion on these cars gives people the amount of sliding needed to learn to control the car, which then would be a great step towards turning everything off on a car they're making payments on. As opposed to the 16 and prior cars where if you're just learning, it's either in the way or you're on your own. I would absolutely have my fiance use track mode for her first track day experience, and probably several after that before going into discussions about how to correct the car when it was there to save her. Or better yet, how not to get into that position in the first place.

[Somerandom18]

Track mode is pretty much perfect

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

Agreed. But, I would argue that the level of intrusion on these cars gives people the amount of sliding needed to learn to control the car, which then would be a great step towards turning everything off on a car they're making payments on. As opposed to the 16 and prior cars where if you're just learning, it's either in the way or you're on your own. I would absolutely have my fiance use track mode for her first track day experience, and probably several after that before going into discussions about how to correct the car when it was there to save her. Or better yet, how not to get into that position in the first place.

The longer you use it, the more dependent you become on it.

The problem is that as it keeps saving you, you don't ever get a slap on the wrist as you approach the limit "a little too much", and you keep pushing harder and harder, because of the lack of consequence.

The day you turn it off, either you realize you know nothing (like Jon Snow), and effectively start the learning process over, or catastrophically go beyond the limit, and still don't have the chance to learn to recover, with a much larger chance of consequence.

Those racing schools I teach at? Exclusively aids off (a lot of these cars don't have aids to begin with). Let the errors happen earlier, while the speeds are lower, and the consequences lesser.

If someone is just diving into tracking without any coaching or classroom, it's probably a good idea to have it on. With any sort of instruction, at all, it should be off.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by eron

I rented a 2017 Toyota 86 at the Nurburgring last weekend

That's a very different scenario than what most of us are using the car for. I know when I head out to the track for an HPDE and I'm already familiar with the track I'm out there to improve my skills and learn. I believe that's what most people are out there to do outside of the Novice groups.

It's great to hear that the new track mode is what most of us would want out of a traction control mode, I know I'd use it my first session out to knock some of the rust off, and I'd definitely recommend it to someone who's nervous and wants the safety net, but it certainly won't be a substitute for running full off for people who regularly track.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by imnotsureaboutbrz

My not be the exact answer you're looking for but it looks like a normal mode the 2017's are a little less invasive.

Is this from the user manual?

[imnotsureaboutbrz]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Is this from the user manual?

Nope it's from Subaru's "confedential" internal document disclosing the changes from my16 to my17. It's been leaked and shared for a while...

https://imgur.com/a/PmiSE

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by imnotsureaboutbrz

Nope it's from Subaru's "confedential" internal document disclosing the changes from my16 to my17. It's been leaked and shared for a while...

https://imgur.com/a/PmiSE

Just confirming that "Track" mode is aimed and advertised for users to use it on a track.

[trippinbillies40]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Went back out to High Plains to beat on the 17 some more. Was curious to see how much time I lost with track mode on vs. all off. Turns out I was .05 faster with everything off. That's down to driver input more than aid intervention. So, being the curious guy I am, I stuck a good friend of mine in the car to try both track mode and all off. He's a very, very talented driver, and had never driven the car before but knows that track way better than I do. He finished .07 FASTER in track mode, hehe. His all off time was nearly identical to my all off time, and his track mode time put almost a tenth on my fast lap.

So, ymmv, but I don't subscribe to the "you'll never be an F1 star unless you learn to drive with everything off" school of thought. I'm much more in the "99% of us tracking our cars will NEVER wheel to wheel race them, so track mode is a great way for someone to get the most out of their car on track but give you a little cushion in case you briefly run out of talent" camp. I'm sure most track day enthusiasts would be happy to trade half a tenth of some added insurance on bringing their car home in one piece.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Went back out to High Plains to beat on the 17 some more. Was curious to see how much time I lost with track mode on vs. all off. Turns out I was .05 faster with everything off. That's down to driver input more than aid intervention. So, being the curious guy I am, I stuck a good friend of mine in the car to try both track mode and all off. He's a very, very talented driver, and had never driven the car before but knows that track way better than I do. He finished .07 FASTER in track mode, hehe. His all off time was nearly identical to my all off time, and his track mode time put almost a tenth on my fast lap.

So, ymmv, but I don't subscribe to the "you'll never be an F1 star unless you learn to drive with everything off" school of thought. I'm much more in the "99% of us tracking our cars will NEVER wheel to wheel race them, so track mode is a great way for someone to get the most out of their car on track but give you a little cushion in case you briefly run out of talent" camp. I'm sure most track day enthusiasts would be happy to trade half a tenth of some added insurance on bringing their car home in one piece.

I would recommend reviewing telemetry, and you'll be able to see where exactly track mode is intervening when you don't need it to, and ultimately become significantly faster in your car by exploiting that. I would consider 0.05-0.07s within error range. Intentionally push the car harder with track mode on, and see where you gain time, and where you lose time (from intervention). Use it as a tool to further your development.

When my car was NA, track mode was consistently over 1.5s slower on a 2 minute course, both stock suspension and with coilovers, while just utterly destroying my rear brakes by pouring unneeded heat into them.

Here's an example of a lap that is impossible to replicate in track mode; it just flat out won't let you. Some data attached for your perusal.

[CSG Mike]

Whoops, forgot to link the video.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WreOz2k6Drk"]86Cup Buttonwillow 13CW - YouTube[/ame]

[trippinbillies40]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I would recommend reviewing telemetry, and you'll be able to see where exactly track mode is intervening when you don't need it to, and ultimately become significantly faster in your car by exploiting that. I would consider 0.05-0.07s within error range. Intentionally push the car harder with track mode on, and see where you gain time, and where you lose time (from intervention). Use it as a tool to further your development.

When my car was NA, track mode was consistently over 1.5s slower on a 2 minute course, both stock suspension and with coilovers, while just utterly destroying my rear brakes by pouring unneeded heat into them.

Here's an example of a lap that is impossible to replicate in track mode; it just flat out won't let you. Some data attached for your perusal.

You guys don't know me or Chris and our driving abilities, so it seems a little errant to claim that I'm not pushing it hard enough. I'm not claiming you're wrong either, because obviously I don't know you or your driving ability. But I can't begin to fathom how track mode is slowing you down by 1.5 seconds. It doesn't interfere with anything except rate of change on slip angle, so unless your driving style is 45 degrees sideways everywhere, I don't see how it would slow it down that much.

That having been said, Chris (other guy that drove my car) is a multi-time national champion autocrosser, multi-track record holder in NASA and BMWCCA, and works for a major auto maker as a vehcile dynamics development driver, so I'd have to say that if he can also get in the car and be impressed that track mode isn't holding him back, it's probably true.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

You guys don't know me or Chris and our driving abilities, so it seems a little errant to claim that I'm not pushing it hard enough. I'm not claiming you're wrong either, because obviously I don't know you or your driving ability. But I can't begin to fathom how track mode is slowing you down by 1.5 seconds. It doesn't interfere with anything except rate of change on slip angle, so unless your driving style is 45 degrees sideways everywhere, I don't see how it would slow it down that much.

That having been said, Chris (other guy that drove my car) is a multi-time national champion autocrosser, multi-track record holder in NASA and BMWCCA, and works for a major auto maker as a vehcile dynamics development driver, so I'd have to say that if he can also get in the car and be impressed that track mode isn't holding him back, it's probably true.

Your response is precisely why I posted the datalog. Please, take a look at it, and you can see when the car would have intervened. The traces shown were intentionally chosen as those are the channels used (among others) to determine if intervention is needed. Wheel speed data is also available if you need it to verify my findings. Rate of yaw and slip change is correct, but how is it determining this? How does that work with or against the data presented in my log above? To be fair, I should also note that the log above is on a partially wet surface, and does involve some intentional shenanigans since it was a demo lap given to a 86CUP board member.

I also am employed my multiple automotive manufacturers as a development driver and test driver, and in many cases, work with several of them at the highest levels of testing, for both roadgoing and race vehicles.


Fun facts:
- trail braking is severely hampered without the pedal dance.
- the steering wheel's angle sensor (clock spring) is still taken into account with a 5 second press or track mode, but not with the pedal dance.
- e-diff functionality is present with track/5secondpress but not pedal dance.

Food for thought.

I'd be more than happy to be open to discussion with Chris, provided we are employed by the same company(ies), as otherwise, further public discussion is prohibited by our respective employment contracts.

[Briankbot]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

That having been said, Chris (other guy that drove my car) is a multi-time national champion autocrosser, multi-track record holder in NASA and BMWCCA, and works for a major auto maker as a vehcile dynamics development driver, so I'd have to say that if he can also get in the car and be impressed that track mode isn't holding him back, it's probably true.

Having read through this thread and having heard of Chris's (assuming his last name starts with "M") driving reputation and accomplishments from other sources, I'm inclined to agree with your take that track mode isn't stopping a driver from getting the fastest time achievable out of a car.

In some ways this reminds me of the pedal dance discussion, which I used to use until someone who is a SCCA Solo multi-time national champion and test driver for a major tire manufacturer convinced me the button hold method ('13-'16 model years) is actually better. For me, achievements in competition have quite a bit of influence on what I'm inclined to test and adopt in the pursuit of going faster.