BRZ/FR-S Strut Tower Brace - Any Interest?

[GrimmSpeed]

@Hawk77FT I read that post last night, and I know it's already been mentioned, but I/we really appreciate you taking the time to express everything. That literally made my week. I woke up this morning, and it was snowing AGAIN, doesn't bother me though! I have a residual smile on my face
@eikond Hey, you're a moderator over on the vert forum aren't you! I used to be very active on the KA forum back in the day
@chanomatik We won't forget about you, promise!
@wheelhaus I really like that phrase "me too" engineering. We're not interested in selling something that you can already buy, and I really love when people recognize that. "Me too" engineering is really easy, and probably is easy to make money on, but brings literally nothing worth having to the table.
@2point0 It's guys with attitudes like yours that get me excited to come on the forum and show you what we're working on. You already know how valuable input from folks like you is to us.

Originally Posted by Vracer111

I like this bar and would upgrade from my SRT bar for this...SRT is similar (single solid piece [flat metal stock mounting tabs welded to the tube], hollow steel tube design, less than $100) but is too close to the AC line and has slight bends in it. I don't think I'll mind the weight increase for better rigidity and clearance of AC line...

The mounting strategy of that bar always threw up a flag to me, as you've mentioned. No doubt though, it makes it very easy to produce. However, just the same, we will be limited on clearance for the AC line.

The only way to add clearance is to raise the bar up higher. To accomplish this, you need to make the brackets taller. However, when the brackets get taller, they become a longer lever arm, and all the sudden the bending loads going into them are becoming much larger. You're already limited in how thick you can make the brackets due to the stud length, so the only option would be to increase the size of the gussets bracing the bracket, which you really can't in an elegant or effective way. So the design solution I've been leaning towards would maximize the strength of the brackets by making clearance to the sound generator number one priority, and keeping the height of the brackets down to minimize the effective length of the lever arm. The sacrifice is not being able to clearance the AC line. We'll either implement a clip, or sheath, etc to protect the line from damage.

Originally Posted by RazBRZ

Just in case you couldn't tell. I'm in when the list starts. I'm in for basically anything you guys come up with

Really? Next thing we're coming out with is Tacos!!! Hard Shell of course. :P

Originally Posted by Hawk77FT

[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSLlPjcu1doq3gTUTGQvulSQgbZd_QcI aIP***Mhu505nxr6pBszQ[/IMG]

I see what you did there...

Originally Posted by phat 86

I am in I have everything u guys make for the fr-s so why not. Thanks for all the great stuff. What's next lol

You tell us! Any ideas?

Chase
Engineering

[eikond]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

@eikond Hey, you're a moderator over on the vert forum aren't you! I used to be very active on the KA forum back in the day

Yes sir! I was the original vert forum moderator "over there". After a couple years I was asked to be an admin for the forum as a whole and I've been doing that ever since. Despite not currently having any Nissans in my driveway I'm still plugged in big-time into the forum.

I loved that forum.. still have a soft spot in my heart for the 240sx convertible. One of these days I'll get another one and use it as a weekend cruiser.

To make the world a little smaller.. I'm originally from your neck of the wood as well. I grew up in Eau Claire, WI.. Not far from MPLS.

[2point0]

Screw the sound generator! Bar should come with a plug for the intake.

Ok, I know it's not for everyone, but I am so glad I removed that piece of crap. I've had the rear seat down all week, enjoying the sound of my Nameless axleback.

[mottor]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Rock on! I don't wanna put the cart in front of the horse or anything here, but now is about the time when we'd start scheduling time in the next few months to begin our next FT86 project, so if you fellas have any killer ideas, feel free to share! (If they're super duper killer, give me a call instead. ).

Matt
Engineering

Do you guys have a direction you're hoping to go for your next project? Rear strut tower bar would be nice if you think there's improvement to be made. I mentioned headers before just because it seems to be a place to make a HUGE improvement on the car, and there aren't that many vendors offering them yet.

Rear camber seems to be a continuous issue for many of us and there are only a few good solutions thus far. You have LCAs, which tend to be expensive. I've also heard that some of these can negatively affect toe as well. Then I've read where some people are using camber bolts shaved down and placed where the LCA connects to the frame. I'd personally prefer not to modify a part to make it work.

We have intakes and sway bar options aplenty, though I don't recall any of them being head and shoulders above the rest.. There are a couple of short shifter kits, and a couple of options for pulley kits, though I'm not sure how much improvement could be made on others' designs.

I'll keep brainstorming. If anyone else likes any of these ideas they can second it.

[chanomatik]

Originally Posted by mottor

Use tapatalk or tapatalk 2 and just login to the forum through the app. It gets me by when I don't have access to my PC.

Hey! Don't try to take responsibility away from these guys! They should be watchin' my back! hahaha

Nah, that's a good idea. I'll look into that. Thanks!

[SonnyBRZ]

Definitely interested and ready to pay deposit.

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

[MENTION=13868]The mounting strategy of that bar always threw up a flag to me, as you've mentioned. No doubt though, it makes it very easy to produce. However, just the same, we will be limited on clearance for the AC line.

The only way to add clearance is to raise the bar up higher. To accomplish this, you need to make the brackets taller. However, when the brackets get taller, they become a longer lever arm, and all the sudden the bending loads going into them are becoming much larger. You're already limited in how thick you can make the brackets due to the stud length, so the only option would be to increase the size of the gussets bracing the bracket, which you really can't in an elegant or effective way. So the design solution I've been leaning towards would maximize the strength of the brackets by making clearance to the sound generator number one priority, and keeping the height of the brackets down to minimize the effective length of the lever arm. The sacrifice is not being able to clearance the AC line. We'll either implement a clip, or sheath, etc to protect the line from damage.

Chase
Engineering

SRT bar is low and fits best under the AC line, though the line pretty much rests directly on top of it. The Grimspeed bar appears to at least fit better above the AC line with more space, plus a better, more rigid design. Prototype looks pretty much how I'd want it.

What is this sound generator you speak of...ohhhh, you mean the worthless piece I got rid of and cleaned up the engine bay by removing when I made a custom intake system?

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Sounds good! We'll add you to the 'interested' list when the time comes. Thanks for the support! We think you'll enjoy the upgrade.

Matt
Engineering

Matt,

Add me to your list too.

[s2d4]

It got me thinking, since I will be buying this strut bar unless final testing goes pear shaped which seems unlikely, why not all the chassis reinforcement parts as well? i.e. rear strut, members/fenders/pillars bracing- the whole package..
Will you guys be looking into this?

The best thing is that we would be able to see the testing results which I don't think anyone has provided so far in that segment.

[Captain Snooze]

Hypothesis:
One needs to upgrade the suspension and bushes before the benefit of a tower brace becomes apparent. That is, there is more flex in the bushes than in the chassis and until that is eliminated the benefit of the tower brace won't be noticeable.

Your thoughts?

[DIE1000DEATHS]

Originally Posted by mottor

Do you guys have a direction you're hoping to go for your next project? Rear strut tower bar would be nice if you think there's improvement to be made. I mentioned headers before just because it seems to be a place to make a HUGE improvement on the car, and there aren't that many vendors offering them yet.

Rear camber seems to be a continuous issue for many of us and there are only a few good solutions thus far. You have LCAs, which tend to be expensive. I've also heard that some of these can negatively affect toe as well. Then I've read where some people are using camber bolts shaved down and placed where the LCA connects to the frame. I'd personally prefer not to modify a part to make it work.

We have intakes and sway bar options aplenty, though I don't recall any of them being head and shoulders above the rest.. There are a couple of short shifter kits, and a couple of options for pulley kits, though I'm not sure how much improvement could be made on others' designs.

I'll keep brainstorming. If anyone else likes any of these ideas they can second it.

Get the H&R TC212 camber bolts and you won't have to modify anything. They'll fit and work fine in the rear LCA.

[Sgt.Beardface]

Can I please get on the interested list as well? Although I'd really like a definitely list. Thanks much!


-Chuck

[GrimmSpeed]

Originally Posted by s2d4

It got me thinking, since I will be buying this strut bar unless final testing goes pear shaped which seems unlikely, why not all the chassis reinforcement parts as well? i.e. rear strut, members/fenders/pillars bracing- the whole package..
Will you guys be looking into this?

The best thing is that we would be able to see the testing results which I don't think anyone has provided so far in that segment.

That I really can't say yet, because I don't know. We have a product design schedule here, and we design for more than just the twins. We also don't stack too much on our plate at one time, otherwise the chances of missing an important detail or missing a deadline, etc becomes that much greater.

With that said, we have been talking, and anywhere where we can identify room for improvement we're willing to do some testing!

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Hypothesis:
One needs to upgrade the suspension and bushes before the benefit of a tower brace becomes apparent. That is, there is more flex in the bushes than in the chassis and until that is eliminated the benefit of the tower brace won't be noticeable.

Your thoughts?

Capn, excellent question. I am a man of science, and my bullcrap meter is precisely calibrated. There is a reason I've never put a strut tower brace on any of my personal cars, and that's because I didn't believe in their potential benefit. Now, if I had ever seen any empirical evidence contrary to that claim, I might have purchased one. ESPECIALLY when we're talking about a brand new car, not some tired worn out chassis.

So I wanted in on this project bad. Then we started testing and I changed my mind. After I had prototyped our test bar, I had left it on the car in the shop. Unbeknownst to me, an employee here had driven the car briefly, and came to me the next day and told me the car felt a lot tighter, just driving through the pot holes and terrible pavement in an area by the shop, he was not even driving the car hard. I thought to myself: "no way."

Then Matt and I set up our test rig to measure deflection between the towers, and he drove while I rode passenger. We did back to back runs in the same areas, doing the same tests, within 10 minutes of each other. We immediately could tell the difference, and I mean WE. We hadn't even measured our data and we were already extremely excited. Even just riding passenger, I noticed how less harsh the car is going through potholes and irregularities in the road. Matt, as the driver, kept saying it was "a night and day difference."

So to answer your question I would have to say that you can absolutely tell a difference, mostly in consistency but also in decreasing NVH. With that said, the values of deflection we're seeing for the strut towers relative to each other probably equate to a fraction of a degree of camber change, so it's not like it's completely changing the car's handling characteristics. However, we are seeing the values of deflection oscillating between tension and compression in long sweeping turns, and since in a turn the strut towers will tend to deflect in the same direction, its clear that minimizing that oscillation adds a much more consistent feel and loading to the tires.

So I'd just like to reword your question a little bit into an answer. Yes, to us (your experience may vary) you can tell a difference between having a strut brace and not having a strut brace on an otherwise stock (we have coilovers) vehicle. However, when you start to modifying other parts of the suspension, such as changing to stiffer bushings, additional bracing, etc the need for a brace between the two strut towers will grow, as you will see even more deflection at this point as you minimize compliance and deflection in other areas.

Originally Posted by Sgt.Beardface

Can I please get on the interested list as well? Although I'd really like a definitely list. Thanks much!


-Chuck

Don't worry, we won't miss anyone!

It's Monday again, and I know you're all excited for it As far as I see it, we're a week closer to making this strut tower brace a reality!

Chase
Engineering

[Captain Snooze]

I've tried to be strong. My will has been sapped. Resistance is futile.
Put me on the list.