Drift-Office : 5-Way SC Shootout! (ESC vs HKS vs Innovate vs Vortech vs JRSC vs KWSC)

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by TRD_07

^Looks like both the Vortech and Jackson kits were running a HKS EL header except the KW.

That is correct, the KW setup had a Nameless exhaust (with stock mid-pipe) and stock header. The VT and JR kits both had the HKS EL header, and it's usually stated on the dyno graph.

Originally Posted by F1point4

Bob, thanks again for the visibility into the kits, love seeing your posts. May I ask why the kW/jr rotrex kits fall so hard around 7k?

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

As the two Rotrex units are the same between the kits, they should perform rather similarly. There is no perfect compressor - I'd say they're beginning to max out. IIRC, at least one of the two companies already said they built the kit in mind with the possibility for a larger Rotrex unit. The included units are a smaller sized Rotrex.

That would be my guess, mostly.

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I could not find evidence of a HKS EL or other header in the link Bob provided to the original dyno of the KW kit. Interesting that the same blower (KW and JR use the same Rotrex), on the same dyno, make similar power albeit one has a header and one does not.

Still want to see these SC kits with the Nameless header if possible...looks like it'd fit with the JR.

Both KW kits that were tuned here had stock headers. One one them will be back with a different exhaust setup shortly - I'll update my findings here then.

In regards to having a header on a FI SC setup, I posted this awhile back ~ Ref : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47101

In that even the ELs do little for SCs, sans a tad in the mid-range and top end. That experiment was conducted on the same car with the same fuel with and without the header, FYI.

Regards!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Both KW kits that were tuned here had stock headers. One one them will be back with a different exhaust setup shortly - I'll update my findings here then.

In regards to having a header on a FI SC setup, I posted this awhile back ~ Ref : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47101

In that even the ELs do little for SCs, sans a tad in the mid-range and top end. That experiment was conducted on the same car with the same fuel with and without the header, FYI.

Regards!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Thanks Bob, I'm mostly wondering about our unicorn header though

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Thanks Bob, I'm mostly wondering about our unicorn header though

Indeed. But I hear someone might try to fill that void soon. Stay tuned, as always!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Indeed. But I hear someone might try to fill that void soon. Stay tuned, as always!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Will do!

Heh, you punny.

[JS + BRZ]

Thanks a lot for the effort you guys put in for our cars.

Appreciate it!

[xwd]

Originally Posted by Monogram

Looks to me like someone needs to install an electric supercharger inline with a variable vane turbo.

I think if you had a correct sized variable vane turbo it would make the ESC pretty useless.

On this car with a smallish turbo like the AVO/Greddy/etc. above 3000RPM you are going to make more boost than the electric SC almost instantly so it becomes kind of meaningless except at very low RPMs.

With a large turbo I would use it to keep the turbo spooled off-boost but things start to get complicated pretty quickly.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by dwx

With a large turbo I would use it to keep the turbo spooled off-boost but things start to get complicated pretty quickly.

There's a reason compound turbos aren't very popular...

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Monogram

Looks to me like someone needs to install an electric supercharger inline with a variable vane turbo.

Phantom ESC Compound (twin) Charge -
In regards to a compound charge setup, some info can be found here:
http://www.wildweasel.ca/HowTo/Auto/eturboTest.aspx

Phantom ESC + M45 Roots blower. Here, the small electric blower was the Phantom TQ180 and the large electric blower was a Proto-Phantom TQ250 if my assumption is correct.


Questions remain as the the usefulness of a Phantom ESC (any size) + Vortech kit, and if anyone will develop (possibly @shiv@vishnu (?)). Who isn't at least curious about the potential? Ok, I know some don't care. I do.

Or perhaps compound Phantom TQ180->TQ250 or TQ250->TQ250 or maybe TQ180->TQ300. Any of these setups add complexity/cost and would require extensive testing before becoming an Phantom "kit". @Robftss may or many not speak to how likely any of this is to happen.

Phantom ESC performance
Couple things with the Phantom ESC. Cost and complexity are very low. I installed mine in 2 hours, and can remove it in 30 minutes for dealer visits.

From a max WHP & WTQ perspective, on E85 (at $1650) the Phantom ESC will likely match or exceed both the Innovative & HKS kits in both WHP & WTQ at WOT. I mention this because, to OpenFlashTablet owners, running e85 is a no-cost upgrade. For Innovative-HKS, not so much. From what I understand @shiv@vishnu is close to releasing this tune. This creates a nice linear upgrade path, OFT pump gas, OFT+e85, Phantom ESC, + Dual Dump battery upgrade. Total cost for Phantom ESC (dual dump) + OFT is about $2300-$2300. Open Flash Header is optional and does improve both WOT & non-WOT performance and driveablilty.

[djdnz]

Great comparison, thank you very much Bob! Wish I was closer so I could get you to do some tuning for me!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

So really, if I had to pick one, my choice would be that of function over form, coupled with a price to performance ratio that's rated equally high. That choice would be *drum roll please...*

The KraftWerks SC offering.

It should be noted that I can't fault Jackson Racing's offering much either - it's essentially the same. We did however, tune both the JR and KW SC its on the dyno at the same time within days of each other repeatedly and found that the charge temps were rising consistently higher (slightly, 3-5 degrees more) between runs in the JR kits. This might imply that the intercoolers are more efficient on the KWSC. Let's be clear here : I am in no way saying that the JR intercooler isn't efficient. I'm just saying it's marginally less efficient than that of the KW offering. Despite KW's 'noisy' cog issue (which they're working on) - cooling would make all the difference in a performance shootout.

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

That is correct, the KW setup had a Nameless exhaust (with stock mid-pipe) and stock header. The VT and JR kits both had the HKS EL header, and it's usually stated on the dyno graph.

.
.
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In that even the ELs do little for SCs, sans a tad in the mid-range and top end. That experiment was conducted on the same car with the same fuel with and without the header, FYI.

So let me get this straight.

The Jackson kit makes more power, but you choose the Kraftwerks kit because it has 3-5 degree lower intake temps? You already eliminated the header as a source for more power. If cooling makes all the difference, then why does the Kraftwerks kit make *less power* with a 3-5 degree lower intake temp? Lets not forget the Kraftwerks setup is also spinning the blower to a higher RPM. Isn't the end result what really matters, not a negligible (less than 1% absolute) temperature difference?

If it's function over form, shouldn't the kit that makes the most power for the same price, without any issues, be the kit of choice?

[Subzero]

(nm---found it. Mercedes M45 in the Wild Weasel link.)

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

So let me get this straight.

The Jackson kit makes more power, but you choose the Kraftwerks kit because it has 3-5 degree lower intake temps? You already eliminated the header as a source for more power. If cooling makes all the difference, then why does the Kraftwerks kit make *less power* with a 3-5 degree lower intake temp?

If it's function over form, shouldn't the kit that makes the most power for the same price, without any issues, be the kit of choice?

Yes, the JRSC kit with an EL header makes more power than the KWSC kit thru 4500 - 6500 RPM . However, I don't feel that was warranted given the extra $1100 for the HKS EL header and if that was the case, I'd surely go to a turbo charged setup with that overall cost, hence the price to performance ratio. I haven't eliminated the header as a source of power in your respect Mike, I've only stated that it doesn't yield enough to warrant any of the EL prices when used in conjunction with any of the SC setups.

Truth be told., both KWSC setups that I tuned had the same Nameless OP / FP combo with the STOCK OEM Mid-Pipe and an axle back exhaust. Had I had a proper 3 inch setup back there, I could probably have yielded somewhat similar results in that RPM range.

Therefore, given what we've seen performance wise and the cooler temps plus the lower costs of investment with the KWSC kit, that would be my choice. Of course, we'll be getting a KWSC kit with a header here soon, and that would be more of an apples to apples comparison, though I don't think it would vary too far from the norm, unless this new header becomes the game changer. Still, if I had to buy a SC kit plus header (and in the Innovate's case, plus intercooler) - I'd rather buy a TC setup, which I already have.


Cheers,


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[CSG Mike]

Have you tuned either kit since those kits featured in the dynos? These same dynos are the ones that were available since last year.

Have you tuned both kits on otherwise stock powertrains? I'd be interested in seeing an apples to apples comparison. You'd have to agree that 3-5 degrees could be variance in ambient temps, or even within the range of error.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Attachment 71894

Yes, the JRSC kit with an EL header makes more power than the KWSC kit thru 4500 - 6500 RPM . However, I don't feel that was warranted given the extra $1100 for the HKS EL header and if that was the case, I'd surely go to a turbo charged setup with that overall cost, hence the price to performance ratio. I haven't eliminated the header as a source of power in your respect Mike, I've only stated that it doesn't yield enough to warrant any of the EL prices when used in conjunction with any of the SC setups.

Truth be told., both KWSC setups that I tuned had the same Nameless OP / FP combo with the STOCK OEM Mid-Pipe and an axle back exhaust. Had I had a proper 3 inch setup back there, I could probably have yielded somewhat similar results in that RPM range.

Therefore, given what we've seen performance wise and the cooler temps plus the lower costs of investment with the KWSC kit, that would be my choice. Of course, we'll be getting a KWSC kit with a header here soon, and that would be more of an apples to apples comparison, though I don't think it would vary too far from the norm, unless this new header becomes the game changer. Still, if I had to buy a SC kit plus header (and in the Innovate's case, plus intercooler) - I'd rather buy a TC setup, which I already have.


Cheers,


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Why are these two torque curve's plummeting after 6500rpm? I thought these centri superchargers would make max power at max rpm.....are they hitting some sort of limit?