Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by motrek

The Porsche I've ridden around in most is a mid-2000s that looks like it weighs around 3100 lbs. I suppose a lot of that could be sound-deadening material but that doesn't really speak to why it rides smoothly on public roads and also crushes it on a track...

Engineering. That is a big reason they cost so much.

[DandoX]

Originally Posted by motrek

Good point.

1. I'm single, no wife, no kids. I don't need or want a big car. Right now my old BMW 3-series feels too big and heavy for one person. I appreciate that I can drive around 2-3 passengers once in a while but I can live without that. I also like lower cars. So, small, low, and lightweight are priorities.

2. It will be my only car and my daily driver, so I need it to be practical to some degree. To me, that means a useful amount of storage space, and comfortable on longer road trips, i.e., a cabin that isn't too loud and a ride that isn't too harsh. (You might say "hey that's not a sports car" but I've been in sports cars that are pretty quiet and smooth, again, e.g., Porsche 911s seem pretty nice.)

3. Driving around town, I do like turning, accelerating, and braking harder than average. I figure, what's the point of getting a higher-performance car if you don't like doing that. So definitely I want the car to show some urgency when I hit the accelerator. When I mash the accelerator in my ~200 horsepower BMW that weighs 3200 lbs, it's a kick in the pants. When I mash the accelerator in a ~200 horsepower 86 that weighs 2700 lbs, it seems like almost nothing happens. I don't understand why not but it's disappointing. (Edit: Well, something does happen in the 86, namely, the cabin gets so loud that you have to pause the conversation you're having with your passenger.)

4. I want something that I can occasionally track and have it be fun. I haven't tracked my BMW because I'm sure it would be kinda stupid. The car is just too big and heavy. I'm sure it could do fairly well, but it would protest the entire way, and that's not fun to me.

So, cars I've been thinking about are ideally the 86 (seems like it satisfies most priorities and I like how they look), Civic (again, don't like how they look or how ubiquitous they are), GTI (don't want another German car though), and a Mini (yet another German car though). Edit: Also considering a WRX.

I personally don't feel like the 86 is that slow, I just downshift and take to redline and it moves. Only time it can feel slow is from a dead stop or past 70 on the freeway. I had an 80s 3 series in the past and loved it, the 86 reminded me of it but faster and lighter. I've also used my FRS to move and it hauled more than I was expecting. I've fit 4 full size tires plus some tools in my car without too much trouble. Really if you want sideways action this is a great car.

The 86 is super playful in personality but it is also always eager to push things to it's low limit which to me translates to fun. It's a niche car so if your concerned with what others think or like to be in the fatestest it's not the right choice. All I know is for me I love this FRS more than I have ever loved any other car I have owned.

I've also gone on long road trips and commuted hours daily in the FRS in traffic in a manual and never had any issues with comfort, I'm happy to drive the car ever day I can even after about 5 years of ownership. I personally thought it wasn't loud enough so I got a louder catback which made driving even more fun.

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by motrek

370Z seems interesting, but even less practical than the 86 (no rear seats), and also every review I've read says they're a pain to drive fast (unless it's in a straight line) since they're so heavy...

Well then SI is really for you. To me no other real options for what you want. I struggled with this same decision but in the end went with a twin. I live in SoCal and my daily commute is short so the loud cabin noise and firmer ride were find for me.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by DandoX

I personally don't feel like the 86 is that slow, I just downshift and take to redline and it moves. Only time it can feel slow is from a dead stop or past 70 on the freeway. I had an 80s 3 series in the past and loved it, the 86 reminded me of it but faster and lighter. I've also used my FRS to move and it hauled more than I was expecting. I've fit 4 full size tires plus some tools in my car without too much trouble. Really if you want sideways action this is a great car. The 86 is super playful in personality but it is also always eager to push things to it's low limit which to me translates to fun. It's a niche car so if your concerned with what others think or like to be in the fatestest it's not the right choice. All I know is for me I love this FRS more than I have ever loved any other car I have owned.

Actually from a dead stop it doesn't feel slow to me at all. I think winding out 1st gear in almost any car is going to feel pretty fast. The problem to me is when you're not at a dead stop, e.g., you're turning at an intersection, you leave the corner casually at 15-20 MPH in 2nd (since you're not always in Speed Racer mode) and then you dip into the accelerator and... blah. Even if you floor it, blah. Basically what that guy in the YouTube video was saying about the Sprinter van keeping up when coming out of a corner. And it's not like you're going to downshift into 1st when you're going 20 MPH.

[sachu]

Originally Posted by motrek

370Z seems interesting, but even less practical than the 86 (no rear seats), and also every review I've read says they're a pain to drive fast (unless it's in a straight line) since they're so heavy...

The rear seats in the FRS aren't useful either, unless you have a dog then yeah i get it.

The weight on the 370Z is a valid point, but you do get more creature comforts, better drivetrain and a proven motor (with much better reliability) with plenty of power off the shelf to haul that fat ass.

If you aren't satisfied with the GT86 power from the get go, you are not going to be happy till you are boosted and then you'll realize you could have bought a better platform with power to satisfy your need to begin with.

The problem is, yes, you will likely be sacrificing the unique " everything is where it should be, this feels right" in a pure driver's point of view for the price range without cresting into 50k territory for like an M2 or a used 2014 and newer Boxster/Cayman.

You pick your priorities. Make a list of 5 or 10 must haves and have nots and whittle down the list of contenders to see which fits.

As for your Civic SI vs FRS. yeah, you just can't compare FWD to RWD.

[Leonardo]

You don't buy a twin because:

Of the refined interior.

The RAW POWER!

Its pedigree.

All the room, so practical!



You get one because:

The drive experience.

They are fairly inexpensive for the segment.

Proper drive wheels.

Great platform to start from.

They look great!

They are lightweight.

[shiumai]

Originally Posted by motrek

plus I think the new ones are uglier than sin.

This. I think they're ugly, too. It depends on whether you're looking at the numbers on paper, and leaving emotion out of it. For me, buying a car is in part an emotional choice, otherwise i'd have ended up with something other than a BRZ. I'm sorry, but hot hatches, two-door BMW's may perfom better, but they don't look like a 'sports car' to me, and I prefer the aesthetic of a sports car; fully realizing the practical limitations of my choice. For example, the WRX is a cool-looking car, but it doesn't have the sleek lines that appealed to me more. Even after 5 years of ownership, I still admire the way it looks, and it's a good feeling.

For the family car I bought with my wallet and mind. With the BRZ, it was my wallet, mind, eyes and heart. Since you're buying this car for yourself, I'd use the latter.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by sachu

...
As for your Civic SI vs FRS. yeah, you just can't compare FWD to RWD.

I've definitely read this. Actually I've never owned a FWD car and I do like the concept of RWD, but if it's not going to translate into faster track times, not sure what the point is... I guess maybe it "feels" better...

I really don't care about sliding the car around or drifting or anything. Seems like it just translates to the car getting through corners slower in most cases.

[bfrank1972]

Are you open to modding the car? The 86 is a car that really needs to be tweaked - then it's a really good car. Headers + tune + rims/tires = huge difference.

Regarding vs. the SI, they're two totally different cars despite having similar performance envelopes. The 86 has the sports car look, at the expense of some practicality (my kids regularly ride in the back seat, and they're not so small anymore).

My story - I was shopping for an economy car to commute to the train station and around town. Inexpensive. Cheap to run. Good on gas. Was looking at Civics and the like. Then ran across the FR-S at the local Toyota dealer - looked great. Initial test drive was meh - but I went for it anyways because it looked great and heck why not, wasn't going to buy anything super fast anyways. After that, I learned to appreciate the car for what it was, and it took some time. Now after a few select mods and some time, I love it. There is no other car on the market that:

- weighs under 2800lbs
- has back seats that *are* useable by my kids for short trips
- great on gas
- handles like a go kart
- RWD
- gets > 35mph on the highway
- costs $25k brand new

More or less I just stumbled across it in a dealer lot, but it checked all the boxes.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by shiumai

This. I think they're ugly, too. It depends on whether you're looking at the numbers on paper, and leaving emotion out of it. For me, buying a car is in part an emotional choice, otherwise i'd have ended up with something other than a BRZ. I'm sorry, but hot hatches, two-door BMW's may perfom better, but they don't look like a 'sports car' to me, and I prefer the aesthetic of a sports car; fully realizing the practical limitations of my choice. For example, the WRX is a cool-looking car, but it doesn't have the sleek lines that appealed to me more. Even after 5 years of ownership, I still admire the way it looks, and it's a good feeling.

For the family car I bought with my wallet and mind. With the BRZ, it was my wallet, mind, eyes and heart. Since you're buying this car for yourself, I'd use the latter.

Agreed. My heart is saying BRZ but it's a big hurdle for my mind to get over to buy a new sports car that's slower in a straight line than a g. d. Toyota Camry.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

... Initial test drive was meh - but I went for it anyways because it looked great and heck why not, wasn't going to buy anything super fast anyways. After that, I learned to appreciate the car for what it was, and it took some time. ...

Ideally I'd like to rent one for a few days to get used to it. I think Toyota has a program where you can do this. Otherwise I don't see any rental options, even on e.g. Turo. I'll have to call Toyota or Subaru to see if this is an option.

[qcbaker]

I just want to add one thing: a Posrche 911 is like $70K+ new. The current 86 starts around $27K. With a price differential that big, obviously the Porsche is going to crush the 86 in basically every performance/comfort metric. IMO, its barely worth comparing the two, let alone cross shopping them. If you can afford a 911, get that. Its going to be miles better than anything in the "entry level sports car" tier.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by motrek

I've definitely read this. Actually I've never owned a FWD car and I do like the concept of RWD, but if it's not going to translate into faster track times, not sure what the point is... I guess maybe it "feels" better...

I really don't care about sliding the car around or drifting or anything. Seems like it just translates to the car getting through corners slower in most cases.

86 is faster lap times with better tires as mentioned a few times in this thread. Hustling a FWD car around the track is a lot different than RWD. I think you're waaaayyy overthinking this.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by motrek

Agreed. My heart is saying BRZ but it's a big hurdle for my mind to get over to buy a new sports car that's slower in a straight line than a g. d. Toyota Camry.

If the power delivery is a problem, don't get a twin.

A small high rev N/A motor requires a bit of a different state of mind in the power delivery expectation.

The FA20 is effectively a torqueless wonder engine. All the power is at the upper end of the RPM range, the lower range is going to feel like an econobox.

And the 151lb/ft of torque rating is a bit misleading due to the torque dip that occurs somewhere in the 3000rpm-5000rpm range. you lose about 20lb/ft in that dip.

Cars with larger engines and/or more cylinders have more torque available and that is largely due to size, so even if a larger engine is a high rev NA beast, it'll feel 'sluggish' or 'leasurely' at low revs, but it'll have way more available torque to make it feel less like an econobox.

Forced induction always gives you that kick in the pants shove cuz its basically bombing your with power at will (or almost at will due to possible lag)

If you're used to bigger power deliveries and/or turbo shoves and feel like you cant really deal with econoboxes or cars with low torque then you might not like a twin for this reason.

Oh and the twin is not built for straight lines and/or mucho power. It was made as a fun to drive throwback to the old 80's-90's RWD japanese cars of yore.