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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 09-28-2015, 06:18 PM   #1751
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Originally Posted by jbailey8748 View Post
You really want to negative camber and a front sway bar. I don't think we will need anything in the rear.
Front sway and negative camber took out a most of the understeer for me, that you were describing Calum

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Hmm, I've been holding to a theory that most of the understeer comes from the front losing grip when the spring rate of the bump stop increases significantly, almost instantly. The stock suspension always felt like it went from compliant to nearly infinitely stiff just before everything went wrong. The increased roll resistance in the front actually reducing understeer seems to confirm that theory.

As I'm now running T0s, which have a lot more bump and droop travel, I'm guessing a larger front bar wouldn't be the right mod for me.

Thanks for the explanation. And please feel free to correct anything I've said. Suspension tuning is one of those subjects where every time I learn something new I find three more questions.
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Old 09-28-2015, 06:31 PM   #1752
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More front bar is usually tuning for things like slalom, as far as I understand it. I'm not convinced it's the best answer, but it does quite well for the money, especially if you can't put the rate into the springs.
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Old 09-28-2015, 06:34 PM   #1753
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I should mention i have fortune coilovers, and adding the sway helped a lot. I can't speak for what the stock coils can do

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Old 09-28-2015, 07:33 PM   #1754
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Originally Posted by Calum View Post
Hmm, I've been holding to a theory that most of the understeer comes from the front losing grip when the spring rate of the bump stop increases significantly, almost instantly. The stock suspension always felt like it went from compliant to nearly infinitely stiff just before everything went wrong. The increased roll resistance in the front actually reducing understeer seems to confirm that theory.

As I'm now running T0s, which have a lot more bump and droop travel, I'm guessing a larger front bar wouldn't be the right mod for me.

Thanks for the explanation. And please feel free to correct anything I've said. Suspension tuning is one of those subjects where every time I learn something new I find three more questions.
My experience: More front bar improves turn in (as the front outside tire is loaded quicker) but increases mid-corner understeer. IMO it's necessary for autoX. I have the FEAL 441s with a 7kf/6kr spring rate and I've settled on the strano bar out front with a 16mm wrx bar in the back. WIthout them the car has too much roll for me. Sway bars do more for attitude than grip (excluding transitional grip). They only help you go faster, they don't make you go faster

NOW if you have too much rear roll, the diff has a hard time keeping the inside wheel on the ground and that can cause big traction issues for our torsen diff. If your rear roll stiffness is too high, that makes the car easy to oversteer as well. I have 14/16/19mm rear bars, and the 16mm seems to be the happy medium with my setup as previously stated. YMMV

PS, how come I haven't seen you at the track or autocross?!?1
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Old 09-29-2015, 05:24 AM   #1755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calum
My experience is that the car understeers in a steady state corner, while squeezing throttle only enough to maintain speed. Ham fisted maneuvers will easily cause the car to transition into oversteer though. Do the quick transitions in an autox change that, or is it just not possible to be sufficiently smooth and fast for the stock setup?

The benefits of a larger front bar, that I can see, would be quicker turn in and possibly reducing wheel spin. Is the goal really just shifting the balance toward increased understeers? If that's the only goal, why not just do it with alignment and/or tires?
We have, for instance, fast third gear transitions where the whole width of an air strip would be used (left right left right left). Without a bigger front sway bar there's significant oversteer (easily controllable but probably slower). Maybe this could also be fixed with more negative camber in the rear, but it would still take more time for the car to settle.

In general (regardless of the FT86), I'd say, the main goal for rear-wheel driven autocross-cars regarding stiffer front swaybars is to get more rear-wheel grip out of tight corners (and this cannot be fixed with negative camber). For example, this car doesn't even have a rear sway bar:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HCp-UT4JwLA/maxresdefault.jpg
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Old 09-29-2015, 09:35 AM   #1756
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so..... when are more of you guys going to run stx in the northeast?
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Old 09-29-2015, 11:17 AM   #1757
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Originally Posted by Thorpedo View Post
My experience: More front bar improves turn in (as the front outside tire is loaded quicker) but increases mid-corner understeer. IMO it's necessary for autoX. I have the FEAL 441s with a 7kf/6kr spring rate and I've settled on the strano bar out front with a 16mm wrx bar in the back. WIthout them the car has too much roll for me. Sway bars do more for attitude than grip (excluding transitional grip). They only help you go faster, they don't make you go faster

NOW if you have too much rear roll, the diff has a hard time keeping the inside wheel on the ground and that can cause big traction issues for our torsen diff. If your rear roll stiffness is too high, that makes the car easy to oversteer as well. I have 14/16/19mm rear bars, and the 16mm seems to be the happy medium with my setup as previously stated. YMMV

PS, how come I haven't seen you at the track or autocross?!?1

Lack of time/money. And honestly, the idea of building my car to fit a rule book, instead of how I want the car, just doesn't work for me. I wouldn't mind doing a few autocrosses or HPDE's for fun, but I don't have any interest in being competitive in either.
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Old 09-29-2015, 11:43 AM   #1758
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E85 is not legal and has not been legal since the 2013 season.

Also if you have good shocks and have the car setup correctly Stock sway bars are just fine. The stock shocks on this car makes the rear end very twitchy...

I my self are still on stock sway bars and I have no need to change them.


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If you don't have a front sway bar you are NOT dialed in for autoX. Front bar is a simple mod even a C-Street twin needs to be competitive. I would look into dampers as a top priority mod as well seeing what you have.


Strano front bar and stock rear is a good place to start for sure. Also I'm pretty sure E85 isn't legal for STX anymore.
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Old 09-29-2015, 12:11 PM   #1759
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Lack of time/money. And honestly, the idea of building my car to fit a rule book, instead of how I want the car, just doesn't work for me. I wouldn't mind doing a few autocrosses or HPDE's for fun, but I don't have any interest in being competitive in either.
About 75% of the people who show up (for both autocross and hpde) have the same mindset as you. They don't care about classes or who they beat. I'm competitive when it comes to autocross, I'm there to have fun and learn when I'm at AMP. It's more about driver improvement than anything, come give one a try! Autocross is usually $20, lapping days are more but come with a lot more seat time.
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Old 09-29-2015, 03:21 PM   #1760
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About 75% of the people who show up (for both autocross and hpde) have the same mindset as you. They don't care about classes or who they beat. I'm competitive when it comes to autocross, I'm there to have fun and learn when I'm at AMP. It's more about driver improvement than anything, come give one a try! Autocross is usually $20, lapping days are more but come with a lot more seat time.
Steve, of ISI, keeps bugging me to go aswell. I really should get out to a few.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:27 AM   #1761
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E85 is not legal and has not been legal since the 2013 season.

Also if you have good shocks and have the car setup correctly Stock sway bars are just fine. The stock shocks on this car makes the rear end very twitchy...

I my self are still on stock sway bars and I have no need to change them.

There aren't any really fast STX or CS twins without a front bar. It's not that the car can't be balanced or quick without it. But it's faster with it.


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Old 10-01-2015, 08:48 AM   #1762
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^this

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Old 10-01-2015, 01:54 PM   #1763
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There aren't any really fast STX or CS twins without a front bar. It's not that the car can't be balanced or quick without it. But it's faster with it.
Until someone figures out how to be faster without it...

Amateur racing is fun to watch the flavor of the week setups and manufacturers come and go.
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:50 PM   #1764
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Anybody else here running the Whiteline 20mm adjustable front bar? If so, what stiffness setting are you using? I've got mine on full stiff right now and it was pushing pretty hard today. I'm probably going to set it to soft soon and see how that feels. I think with the stiffer front spring rate of the RCE Yellows, full stiff setting may be overkill.
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