For the time attack guys, Traction Control on or off?

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by Takumi788

My very first track day with the FRS and first time on Watkins I kept the VSC on sport. By the third run it started messing with me. I started with it on in the forth run and ended up creeping through the staging lane to turn it off completely.

Completely off and pedal dance are 2 different things.

We run it "completely off" (Hold both buttons for 5 seconds) but some folks feel they need to run it in the pedal-dance mode.

-mike

[7thgear]

this powderface guy is probably the same chump car nut that wrote the "autocross isn't racing" article.


laff

[Takumi788]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Completely off and pedal dance are 2 different things.

We run it "completely off" (Hold both buttons for 5 seconds) but some folks feel they need to run it in the pedal-dance mode.

-mike

Sorry, I should have clarified and read the context of the current topic. To me fully off means holding the button for 5 seconds. I haven't tried the petal dance yet. By the sounds of things I dont need too.

[raul]

@PowderfaceTr.

The massive piece of information you don't seem to understand is that the TC/VSC are safety features, not traction optimization features. Porsche's launch control optimizes traction at launch. Our system has the sole purpose of stopping wheelspin in order to regain control. The difference is you can control its interference threshold between full on, VSC Sport, and TC Off. However, if it kicks in at any point it will kill power for long enough to make you slower than having it all off and making steering/throttle corrections on your own. With enough experience, it's even safer to turn everything off in a track environment.

[7thgear]

^ I think there's a phrasing error in the last sentence. As it sounds that having nannies on is faster .

[celica73]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

If your traction control is kicking in you suck at driving. Removing it is denial.

Using more than 6% slip??? you have a lot to learn about racing.

Unless you pirouette around pylons like a wanna be keep it on.

Racing a car you cant just change out flat spotted Avons every lap. To post laps you must take care of your consumables, transmission and power train. Baggin your Frs heat cycling and acting like "TUNERZ" cus you read a thread has got to stop.

This is totally wrong. I've done back to back testing and my laps are consistently faster at 7% slip than they are at 6%. Get a clue. I also found that the stock stability control intervenes at 4.689% slip, thus slowing me down more than turning it off and driving at the optimal 7% slip.

[raul]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

^ I think there's a phrasing error in the last sentence. As it sounds that having nannies on is faster .

Fixed.

[troek]

when i was trail braking into a very low speed chicane, i was losing my back end when i felt i shouldnt. i attributed this to me being an amateur. however when i started doing the pedal dance, it stopped. this may also be attributed to me being an amateur, lol. but since then, pedal dance= better trail braking. so i for one, am sticking with it.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by troek

when i was trail braking into a very low speed chicane, i was losing my back end when i felt i shouldnt. i attributed this to me being an amateur. however when i started doing the pedal dance, it stopped. this may also be attributed to me being an amateur, lol. but since then, pedal dance= better trail braking. so i for one, am sticking with it.

The pedal dance disallows any trail braking that would cause any significant lateral weight transfer; your observation is dead on!

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I can attest to the fact that the pedal dance does not eliminate ice mode.

I suppose I should add that after being one of the biggest fans of the pedal dance, I have actually quit using it for autocross. I still try it now and then but I've gotten too used to (or good at?) letting the EBD sort it out for me, and the dance inevitably results in the ABS freaking out anytime I dive into a corner on the brakes (BIG front sway bar, stock springs).

I'm sure I could tweak my driving style to make it work but it's hard to justify that when I'm getting good results. On a road course with higher speed turns it would be a different story.

I've been able to get that braking sensation, too, and some other unpleasant things. The ability to change direction while slowing down big was...not good enough. Plow into a corner in a rather unsatisfying fashion, often with the brakes in full freak-out, and then once I actually got the car turned pick up the inside rear and get a taste for how aggressive the e-lsd is when it kicks in. Sure, it kept me from the drift trophy, but it clamped down hard. Avoiding the e-lsd - although the system sounds good on paper - is the primary purpose for the dance for me.

But the pedal dance didn't really do anything about trail-braking or turn-in. What I did (and might be helpful for you) was take my front swaybar to it's softer setting (whiteline 20). The difference was fairly profound. Particularly in street class autocross, I'm not so sure you need an especially big front bar on these. IMO, YMMV, etc.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

If your traction control is kicking in you suck at driving. Removing it is denial.

Using more than 6% slip??? you have a lot to learn about racing.

Unless you pirouette around pylons like a wanna be keep it on.

Racing a car you cant just change out flat spotted Avons every lap. To post laps you must take care of your consumables, transmission and power train. Baggin your Frs heat cycling and acting like "TUNERZ" cus you read a thread has got to stop.

I know this post was already smashed on, but I just have to have my word also.

Optimal slip angle is dependent upon the tire's slip/traction curve at various speeds and tire temps (and other conditions) so blanket statements about optimal slip angles are very dangerous to make. Also, there are almost always crazy number of exceptions to any one of those statements that it is difficult to debate anyway.

In terms of VSC/TC, the car is able to do alot of impressive things to try and keep a idiot from killing themselves. The thing is, that system is not able to look at what is coming up or what is around me. As a driver I know what I want to do (hopefully) and how I want the car to be positioned as I do it. The VSC/TC, in its attempts to help, could put me into a very bad situation by changing the weight balance of the car from what I require to something that I cannot make use of. Once you get above basic driving levels, the weight distribution of the car becomes so critical that unexpected interference can have rather unpleasant results. Now as you say, you want to be smooth enough that the car isn't blinking the VSC light. While true, you need to understand that the system is very hair triggered. When I turned off my traction control for the first time I discovered that it had been blinking at me and unbalancing the car on two corners because of tar patches across the track. I was no where near the limit on those spots, but it still freaked out because one wheel would skip forward some as it lost traction for a fraction of a second.

I would NEVER want a beginner to go out without traction control enabled. At the same time I know that there is a point where the ability to look forward and predict events is a greater (and somewhat exclusionary) safety net than the computer's magic. The system also cannot differentiate between a soon to be bad situation and a purposeful action when at the limit of adhesion.

Also, the people who can pirouette around pylons tend to have some rather amazing car control skills. Mocking them is like mocking a Nascar driver. Yes, they are not exercising the same skills as a road course racer, but they are still exercising phenomenal skills that most people just can't comprehend. If you understood what sorts of skills they have (drifters and other motorsport drivers) and how those skills could improve your own driving, then you wouldn't be nay saying them.

[PowderfaceTr.]

The lack of skid marks on corner entry tell me that the proportioning brake controller works. VSA is off I lay big patches late braking. Somebody is not smooth enough with their inputs if they are getting injector cut. my point all along is if you drove like a pro the ecu wouldn't have a reason to interrupt. Those Hot Version drivers are just having fun with this sporty car. Please adjust your driving style if you cant be fast unless they are off.
Anybody who has a trophy at an SCCA National Event?

[BRZChix]

Originally Posted by Takumi788

Sorry, I should have clarified and read the context of the current topic. To me fully off means holding the button for 5 seconds. I haven't tried the petal dance yet. By the sounds of things I dont need too.

Maybe do some research, read this thread, watch some videos
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...=25494&page=12

Most 86CUP NorCal and SoCal top spot drivers are pedal dancers

@CSG Mike and @CSG David can show you the way

the progression of track driving full on -> vsc sport -> tc off -> pedal dance

good luck!

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

What I did (and might be helpful for you) was take my front swaybar to it's softer setting (whiteline 20). The difference was fairly profound. Particularly in street class autocross, I'm not so sure you need an especially big front bar on these. IMO, YMMV, etc.

A few reasons, but I'm glad someone is finally challenging my setup decisions.

First, pure preference for driving style. On full hard I found myself staying in the throttle in places where, on full soft, I had to back out of it a bit. My times are also better on full hard.

Second, had a VERY good driver hop in the driver's seat for a couple runs. He found it annoying at first, but added in some patience for the car's weak points and better utilized its strengths and beat my best time by 0.1 - which would've been top PAX that day. He said the setup wasn't conventional but worked well once you got used to it.

Third, philosophy. With the street ruleset I believe it's best to do everything in your power to add roll stiffness, and that means a big bar. Also, since any street setup inherently makes compromises, I decided to maximize the car's strengths (slaloms/transitions) at the expense of corner exit understeer in big sweepers. I think with adjustable shocks I might be able to tune that out some, but come slalom time? The car is unreal, almost capable of going faster than I can move my hands.

Fourth, I know I don't have the talent to beat everyone in CS given equal hardware but I still wanna win...so I'm taking a gamble on a setup nobody uses and hoping it works out.