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Old 07-21-2014, 04:26 PM   #57
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until more people realize that "suspension" does not equal "springs/shocks only," these types of problems will always be around for every type of car.

thats why there are so many products now to "fix" the problems that people run into when dumping a car to the ground. if that new coilover system was supposed to be an upgrade, why the hell would there be a need to "fix" a new problem?

as far as power and suspension mods go, the best upgrade is the driver.
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:24 PM   #58
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Spring rate affects the speed with which tire grip is developed, not the absolute grip. Tire grip for a given suspension is related to the load deforming the contact patch which is very tire dependent. The load/grip curve is just that, a curve rising to a point and then suddenly dropping away. Changing the roll rate (which is what spring rates do) may not place your car on a more beneficial spot on this curve as you enter a corner and, in some cases, may actually push the car beyond the limits of the tires more quickly. The maximum grip may or may not be developed with higher roll rates.
This reminded me of Paul Haney's The Racing & High-Performance Tire: Using Tires to Tune for Grip & Balance. [ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Racing-High-Performance-Tire-Balance/dp/0768012414"]The Racing & High-Performance Tire: Using Tires to Tune for Grip & Balance (R-351): Paul Haney: 9780768012415: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]


Haney does an outstanding job explaining what the tire is doing, how it's doing it, and what you might do to get it to give you all that it has to give.
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:37 PM   #59
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Good book, I have a copy on my shelf!
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:21 AM   #60
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as far as power and suspension mods go, the best upgrade is the driver.
While I totally agree with this sentiment I am suggesting that owning and driving a car is not a fully rational process. If one has just spent $700 on "race coilovers" then in a lot of buyers' minds this has been an improvement. I don't understand how 2 upgrades that have had positive reviews on these forums have been a waste of money for me. That is, I haven't been able to pick the difference before and after fitment. Two possible reasons. I am not sensitive enough to pick the difference (which wouldn't surprise me in the least ) or people are seeking positive reinforcement when they post their review. "I have spent my money on this mod therefore it has made an improvement".

Also, there is the desire to make a car according to the owner's picture of what that car should be.Some people spend thousands on their sound system. For some the appearance of their wheels is important. I will (at some stage) be fitting JRZs or MCSs to my car. I am hoping there will be an improvement in ride and lap times but as I do not race any improvement is immaterial but what it will do is fulfill the way I want my car to be.

[/rant]
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:28 AM   #61
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If one has just spent $700 on "race coilovers"
you forgot a zero.
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Old 07-22-2014, 01:23 AM   #62
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After driving my car for a month now on my car with Eibach Pro Springs, I love the look, gave up some comfort for DD driving. Getting an alignment done with camber bolts up front to remove any understeer created by the camber from the natural drop. I like the change and can deal with the good and bad.
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Old 07-22-2014, 01:33 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
While I totally agree with this sentiment I am suggesting that owning and driving a car is not a fully rational process. If one has just spent $700 on "race coilovers" then in a lot of buyers' minds this has been an improvement. I don't understand how 2 upgrades that have had positive reviews on these forums have been a waste of money for me. That is, I haven't been able to pick the difference before and after fitment. Two possible reasons. I am not sensitive enough to pick the difference (which wouldn't surprise me in the least ) or people are seeking positive reinforcement when they post their review. "I have spent my money on this mod therefore it has made an improvement".

Also, there is the desire to make a car according to the owner's picture of what that car should be.Some people spend thousands on their sound system. For some the appearance of their wheels is important. I will (at some stage) be fitting JRZs or MCSs to my car. I am hoping there will be an improvement in ride and lap times but as I do not race any improvement is immaterial but what it will do is fulfill the way I want my car to be.

[/rant]
If MCS decides to ever get back to me, I may consider recommending MCS. Customer service wise, JRZ wins out.
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:12 AM   #64
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Yeah, I have emailed them twice, no reply. I find this very weird business wise.
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that there is a lack of personnel to field the questions and inquiries. I did ask for valve curves for their 1-way and 2-way non-external reservoir setups just to get a better idea of what is to be expected for the system. They have setups for the slammed market and the performance oriented market. I doubt the slammed society wants to spend more than 3k+ on this suspension though.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:47 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by BRGT86 View Post
until more people realize that "suspension" does not equal "springs/shocks only," these types of problems will always be around for every type of car.
this, but also, people need to realize that the parts on there car is only half of it, you also need to do your homework and put some effort into preparing the car.

there's a few mods that are always good, like subframe bushings and braces and the like. replacing components to reduce deflection and make the suspension act more in an ideal manner is almost always a good thing. anything that changes the attributes of the suspension may or may not be a good thing depending on how you use it. nice struts/shocks and springs are cool, but you need a well balanced setup of tires, swaybar settings, alignment, and tire pressure to take advantage of it. anything adjustable is a whole other story, because it means you've now got a huge range of adjustment to adjust it wrong across.

for instance, getting coilovers with 9k/7k rates and running the stock primacys isn't doing you any favors. attempting to duplicate the factory alignment or shooting for zero camber is pretty pointless as well. and counting threads gets you in the rough ballpark, but how many people actually corner weight their cars like you're supposed to with coilovers?

you need to decide what tires you're running, pick rates that make use of their available grip, pick dampers that damp those rates in the suspension of your car 65% critical, come up with an alignment that keeps the tires normal to the ground and pointed where they're supposed to while you're cornering, if you've done anything drastic you get to worry about roll center and bump steer, and once all that's taken care of you get to drive a bunch and confirm your maths as well as tweak the understeer/oversteer balance of the car.

has anyone read "Autocross to Win"? the author's findings while dynoing shocks were pretty amazing: basically if the shock isn't penske, ohlins, bilstein, or koni, it's probably shit. and if it's got an adjuster knob on it, unless you've got a shock dyno, you're screwed. even koni's, he'd dyno ten shocks to find four pairs with similar damping, and two oddballs that don't match anything. the variation in damping in other types of dampers including several JDM brands was even worse, with rear shocks being assembled into front coilovers, valve stacks upside down, etc. he also found that a lot of off the shelf coilovers have pretty bizarre valving so they "feel" stiffer, because that's what sells coilovers.

so if you do your homework and set the car up right, it's not particularly hard to get more performance out of it because the stock setup in any roadgoing car being sold in dealerships is such a compromise, but if you just buy parts at random because someone on ft86club had a positive review of them (case in point: the positive review of D2 coilovers, which are absolute shit), then don't take steps to get the car set up correctly with your new fancy adjustable components, it's very easy to wind up with something far less than ideal.
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:32 AM   #66
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If stock suspension has been an inch to inch and quarter at least lower I would have never gone with coilovers to be honest. Just can't stand the gap "look" is all.
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:46 AM   #67
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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but here's a post I made about what you can do wrong if you value ride and handling:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=67345&page=4

That said, there is a lot you can do right with aftermarket suspension. Some easy things that do improve things and for the track day and auto-x guys, there's lots of untapped potential with these cars. Stock in this car is fantastic...Subaru/Toyota gave us a great chassis. But even for those just enjoy hitting the back roads and having a good (safe) time, there are some improvements that can be made if done right.

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Old 07-22-2014, 08:48 AM   #68
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The gap in performance between stock and good coilovers gets bigger with stickier tires. As you add grip from tires, you need more spring rate (and dampening) to control body motion.
Which gap?

These figures suggest gains in only some corners.

Whether you get gains from stiffer springs (and lower static ride height) depends on a number of factors.

Note the braking forces remain the same and the peak g is the same, practically speaking. Tire can generate only so much force. Add grip and both sets of times, speeds, g's and braking distances will improve. There is no particular reason why any of the deltas would change.

Interesting that the stock setup gave a higher peak speed...depending on the track that might be aerodynamics but more likely would be acceleration out of the corners which is hindered by too much real roll stiffness, regardless of any "improved" balance in the corner. Exit speed is king especially with low power since you can't gain much at the end of each straight.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:10 AM   #69
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While I agree the stock suspension is very good at the track, you can definitely improve on it with quality aftermarket coilovers. Here is some third-party data on stock vs. KWV3's on an FR-S. This is with stock Primacys.

Laptime:
Stock - 1:26.875
KWV3 - 1:25.377

Avg MPH:
Stock - 58.9 mph
KWV3 - 59.8 mph

Peak MPH:
Stock - 95.8 mph
KWV3 - 94.1 mph

Lateral grip:
Stock - 1.12 g
KWV3 - 1.15 g

Braking grip:
Stock - 0.85 g
KWV3 - 0.84 g

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-13...t-results.html
I checked the link itself (thanks for that, BTW).

I consider the stock tire numbers compared to the TSW and Hankook's on KW coilovers to be the most illuminating, particularly the peak braking g. Stiffer springs change the brake balance away from the factory assumed figures when they design the braking system. The decrease in peak braking g is an indicator that the change in the brake balance reduces peak g due to underworking the front tires. It is clear that the biggest improvement comes from fitting the better tires. I wonder what the stock suspension would have produced on those Hankooks?

The description in the text confirms that the biggest advantage the coilovers give is in the transition corners.

I am somewhat surprised that they are surprised at the difference the coilovers make to the fwd Honda since increasing the rear roll stiffness relative to the front produces the biggest difference with fwd: try the new Ford Fiesta ST against the stock (on the same tires preferably) then try them both in winter....
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:22 AM   #70
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I checked the link itself (thanks for that, BTW) and I may be reading this wrong but the body of the article claims a 2 second improvement in lap time from stock, by fitting the KW. The printed numbers don't jive with this.
Not sure if we're talking about the same part of the article, but the text seems to say 1.5 seconds for the FR-S and 2 seconds for the Civic SI, which looks right:

Quote:
The FR-S also went considerably faster on the KW V3s, shaving 1.5 seconds off its baseline.
1:26.875 --> 1:25.377 = 1.498 seconds

Quote:
The Civic shaved two seconds a lap, which is a better-than-average improvement with just a coilover upgrade and a more aggressive alignment.
1:29.039 --> 1:27.047 = 1.992 seconds


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
I consider the stock tire numbers compared to the TSW and Hankook's on KW coilovers to be the most illuminating, particularly the peak braking g. Stiffer springs change the brake balance away from the factory assumed figures when they design the braking system. The decrease in peak braking g is an indicator that the change in the brake balance reduces peak g due to underworking the front tires. It is clear that the biggest improvement comes from fitting the better tires. I wonder what the stock suspension would have produced on those Hankooks?
Interesting comment about the aftermarket coilovers possibly changing the brake balance. It does appear that maximum braking force decreased with every change they made on the FR-S. Hadn't really paid attention to that.

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I am somewhat surprised that they are surprised at the difference the coilovers make to the fwd Honda since increasing the rear roll stiffness relative to the front produces the biggest difference with fwd: try the new Ford Fiesta ST against the stock (on the same tires preferably) then try them both in winter....
Yep I would think FWD cars would benefit the most from changing the handling balance through aftermarket suspension. I know that changing to aftermarket coilovers and a thicker rear sway made a huge improvement on my old RSX.
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