Tesla Model S

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I'm fairly sure making vegetable oil is very land intensive. Afterall, you are throwing away most of the plant mass to extract a tiny portion of the mass in the seed. Now, take the leftover stalks and stuff, turn it into ethanol or burn it for electricity

I was guessing that land use would be one of the negatives.

We really need cellulostic ethanol to improve its efficiency. Can't some genetics genius custom design some kind of bacteria to do that?

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I was guessing that land use would be one of the negatives.

We really need cellulostic ethanol to improve its efficiency. Can't some genetics genius custom design some kind of bacteria to do that?

Already been done, I think the issue is that the difference in enzyme cost is higher than the difference in feedstock cost.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Already been done, I think the issue is that the difference in enzyme cost is higher than the difference in feedstock cost.

If I'm not mistaken, though, scientists haven't given up on that yet and they're working on developing both varieties of switchgrass and other plants as well as ways to make ethanol from them. Or maybe they could work on ways to extract sugar to feed to the algae

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by einzlr

If I'm not mistaken, though, scientists haven't given up on that yet and they're working on developing both varieties of switchgrass and other plants as well as ways to make ethanol from them. Or maybe they could work on ways to extract sugar to feed to the algae

That's essentially what the corn is though, the usual starches and sugars are the ones that are easy to break down and ferment. Cellulose is harder, literally lol.

I think the focus should be first one utilizing as much waste as possible. At the same time, decreasing consumption. I think 40% of our oil is imported, and 60? 70? percent is used for transportation, so cutting consumption 20% (not that difficult to reach actually) and then replacing an additional 10% of the fuel with renewable sources can cut oil imports way down.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

That's essentially what the corn is though, the usual starches and sugars are the ones that are easy to break down and ferment. Cellulose is harder, literally lol.

I think the focus should be first one utilizing as much waste as possible. At the same time, decreasing consumption. I think 40% of our oil is imported, and 60? 70? percent is used for transportation, so cutting consumption 20% (not that difficult to reach actually) and then replacing an additional 10% of the fuel with renewable sources can cut oil imports way down.

But I thought there was work going on to breed switchgrass etc with softer cell walls or something so it breaks down more readily and also yields more per acre than corn while depleting the soil less

And I do think you're combined-strategy approach is spot on; I hear lots of talk about how no one single solution will help us, and I agree.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by einzlr

If I'm not mistaken, though, scientists haven't given up on that yet and they're working on developing both varieties of switchgrass and other plants as well as ways to make ethanol from them. Or maybe they could work on ways to extract sugar to feed to the algae

I'm not getting this sugar thing for algae. I thought they were about phosphates and nitrates + C02 and light. They use algae to help process sewage, and run exhaust gases from powerplants in some applications. Think of the algae blooms in lakes from fertilizer run-off.

The sugars and stainless steel vats sounds like yeast to make ethanol.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm not getting this sugar thing for algae. I thought they were about phosphates and nitrates + C02 and light. They use algae to help process sewage, and run exhaust gases from powerplants in some applications. Think of the algae blooms in lakes from fertilizer run-off.

The sugars and stainless steel vats sounds like yeast to make ethanol.

Yep, you're right; 'cause algae's a plant. Now I'm confused too. Maybe the journalist got it wrong or something. Maybe it's time to look for info from other sources

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm not getting this sugar thing for algae. I thought they were about phosphates and nitrates + C02 and light. They use algae to help process sewage, and run exhaust gases from powerplants in some applications. Think of the algae blooms in lakes from fertilizer run-off.

The sugars and stainless steel vats sounds like yeast to make ethanol.

Yes, it's essentially skipping the crop planting phase. However in a way tanks of algae are a bit harder to process than corn or sugar or wood.

Collecting CO2 from the air is not the easiest thing to do. Waste products are currently the easiest to obtain source of carbon, however it's not really cost effective to process it centrally, which I think is the biggest barrier.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Yes, it's essentially skipping the crop planting phase. However in a way tanks of algae are a bit harder to process than corn or sugar or wood.

Collecting CO2 from the air is not the easiest thing to do. Waste products are currently the easiest to obtain source of carbon, however it's not really cost effective to process it centrally, which I think is the biggest barrier.

Yeah but the issue is that the article said that they feed sugar to the algae. I'll admit that I didn't pay attention to that when I read the article, but Dimman's right that it makes no sense.

[CSSM]

Next time it would be nice not to post the result in the thread title... thanks

[RaceR]

Just read Tesla already have over 1000 orders on Model S from Norway! Delivery is for most customers unknown but about a year. Price is still not set, only rough estimates, and I guess basically none of the customers have been able to get a test drive.
Population here is 5 million.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

... Remember that your tank of gas is actually pretty heavy!

900 pound battery packs of now are not going to become 300 pound battery packs tomorrow...

Gasoline is 6lbs per gallon, so even at 300lbs for a battery pack you are talking 50 gallons of gas, not including the tank of course.

That means in my FR-S I could go 1,600 miles on that 50 gallons of fuel at my current average mileage. I would spend less than 15 minutes refueling (3 refuels) during that time.

Heck, even in my Suburban (which has averaged 16 over its life) I'm going to go 800 miles, with even less time refueling since I would only have to refuel once. I just can't see a battery pack meeting that level of performance/weight/time anytime soon.

I'm with those here that have stated they think the real solution is Hydrogen. It makes infinitely more sense, fits into the current infrastructure and is the same basic experience as we drive today. If the Volt had been Hydrogen/fuel cell, I would have purchased it.

I also believe that the Volt would have been a more efficient car without the battery pack. That pack weighs 435lbs and is basically dead weight after 30 to 40 miles. Leave the drive-train tech as it is, and remove the plug-in option, it would get better fuel mileage over the long haul. Make that fuel hydrogen, and you have a cleaner car than a plug-in electric if you take everything into consideration.

That of course, is a completely unscientific opinion.

[Dimman]

[quote=Dadhawk;562421]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

... Remember that your tank of gas is actually pretty heavy!

900 pound battery packs of now are not going to become 300 pound battery packs tomorrow.../QUOTE]

Gasoline is 6lbs per gallon, so even at 300lbs for a battery pack you are talking 50 gallons of gas, not including the tank of course.

That means in my FR-S I could go 1,600 miles on that 50 gallons of fuel at my current average mileage. I would spend less than 15 minutes refueling (3 refuels) during that time.

Heck, even in my Suburban (which has averaged 16 over its life) I'm going to go 800 miles, with even less time refueling since I would only have to refuel once. I just can't see a battery pack meeting that level of performance/weight/time anytime soon.

I'm with those here that have stated they think the real solution is Hydrogen. It makes infinitely more sense, fits into the current infrastructure and is the same basic experience as we drive today. If the Volt had been Hydrogen/fuel cell, I would have purchased it.

I also believe that the Volt would have been a more efficient car without the battery pack. That pack weighs 435lbs and is basically dead weight after 30 to 40 miles. Leave the drive-train tech as it is, and remove the plug-in option, it would get better fuel mileage over the long haul. Make that fuel hydrogen, and you have a cleaner car than a plug-in electric if you take everything into consideration.

That of course, is a completely unscientific opinion.

The plug in hybrid theory is that most people will make trips within the battery range, and the IC motor is to shut up people who people who whine about pure EV's limited range. It depends on consumers realistically assessing their driving needs and habits, which could be bad news for the Volt.

I heard someone comparing the Volt and Prius. They commented that the Volt is engineered to how people should drive, and the Prius on how they do drive. Interesting perspective.

As for hydrogen, I think it is still having storage issues, because its energy density is rather low.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by Dimman

As for hydrogen, I think it is still having storage issues, because its energy density is rather low.

It's also having major cost and logistics issues. Honda is (was?) doing an experiment in socal with a small number of hydrogen powered vehicles and one replenishing station. Neat that they had a go at it, but last I heard it wasn't moving in any direction toward expansion.

Originally Posted by Dimman

The algae stuff in that article is weird. The sugar part doesn't sound correct or efficient. They don't mention the energy consumed in the extraction process, plus mention growing it in stainless tanks (how does light get in?).

Fishy and hype-y.

Your comments got me curious enough to spend some time looking for answers. I didn't find any directly but I did learn that some species of algae are parasitic, meaning that they don't photosynthesize and they get energy by consuming other plants rather than from the sun. So the role the algae play in B20 creation is converting sugars (from grasses etc) into oil which can be burned in diesel engines as opposed to converting those sugars to alcohols via fermentation.