P0016 on a 60k mile car

[thE_iyE]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

See, thats where you are wrong. I had this code, the shop that works on my car was able to diagnose and correct the issue. The sensor was sending 0 as values (same as the screenshot you have), he swapped the sensor for a new one, but that still didnt fix it, he had to "reset" some values in the ECU (maybe he was refering to these learned values people speak of) and then everything worked normally. I feel like I cheated on this one, for as much trouble as people seem to be having with this particular issue, it took the shop just 1-2 hours with 1 person on the car to fix it. The car was tuned with Ecutek and the shop is a master tuner for ecutek, if that means anything (he had to change the hardware he was using to reset the values, as the laptop he was using initially wouldnt allow him to do that).

As ultramaroon pointed out, those zeros indicate limp mode is all, as they are for angle change, not position. The actual position is not a zero.

My shop completely rewrote the ROM for the ecu, but the code returned. I dont have a bad OCV, the sprocket isn't loose, and the car runs fine.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy a used ECU is that the 'unchangeable' values are technically alre and dy written for a different car, and if they're written for that car, whose to say my car wont trip a CEL again for not having the proper values?

A new ECU from the dealership is astronomical, so, why not just delete the code?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by thE_iyE

The reason I'm hesitant to buy a used ECU is that the 'unchangeable' values are technically alre and dy written for a different car, and if they're written for that car, whose to say my car wont trip a CEL again for not having the proper values?

It's not that they're unchangeable. The system has to sense a normal condition before it'll adjust those values. A used ECU that came from an engine with a healthy vvt servo system should be close enough that it'll adjust itself to your engine.

The problem is that there are no guarantees. I have @rusty959's old ECU and plan on messing with it sometime this spring. I wonder if manually slewing the phasor with Techstream might somehow get it to catch a normal condition. I seriously doubt it but the thought has stuck in my head for a year now.

If that doesn't work, then plan-B will be to rig up a delay line to trick the offending channel into thinking that the valve timing is ok. Then I'll slowly back out the offset while the table relearns itself the other direction.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by thE_iyE

I've heard it now from the local tuner who has seen issue before. The learned values for cam position dont change after a flash. I suppose it is possible that theres a witing issue/ecu plug issue, but that wouldnt necessarily explain p0016 as p0016 is a lack of proper timing, not a lack of signal. That's why the sensor clearance TSB really has nothing to do with this family of codes.

There is a number of components that can contribute to the cam issues causibg various codes, the oil control vavles the cam sprokets actuators the cam position sensors and even the ecu. Its very difficult to diagnose and sometimes it appears it due to several compomemts being at the edge of tolerances causing the ecu to see values outside it normal range and set codes.


Dont discount any of those components even the cam sensors or clearances if they send bogus data back to ecu it possible it will interpret that and set codes.


I dont believe their is hard burnt in values in ecu as after doing 20 or more ecu swaps for paople for variois reasons like auto to manual swaps swaps between various year cars cars with and without cam issues after ecu swaps between cars not seeing cam issues, if values burnt in then you would think swapping ecu even on good engines would cause issues due to the burnt in values.

[thE_iyE]

Originally Posted by steve99

There is a number of components that can contribute to the cam issues causibg various codes, the oil control vavles the cam sprokets actuators the cam position sensors and even the ecu. Its very difficult to diagnose and sometimes it appears it due to several compomemts being at the edge of tolerances causing the ecu to see values outside it normal range and set codes.


Dont discount any of those components even the cam sensors or clearances if they send bogus data back to ecu it possible it will interpret that and set codes.


I dont believe their is hard burnt in values in ecu as after doing 20 or more ecu swaps for paople for variois reasons like auto to manual swaps swaps between various year cars cars with and without cam issues after ecu swaps between cars not seeing cam issues, if values burnt in then you would think swapping ecu even on good engines would cause issues due to the burnt in values.

I've done quite a bit of digging, and I did check clearances on the sensor, even though I'm not convinced that a sensor that reads 1s and 0s would be affected by gap in any way other than only reporting 0s, or only reporting 1s. If you have a signal that's giving information, gapping the sensor really isnt the issue.

The OCV isnt the issue either, as the problem doesnt follow bank when switched.

The sprocket could* be the issue, but I have not seen the same problems others have. The sprocket is not loose from the housing, the spring in the back hasn't popped, and theres no obstruction in the plunger that would prevent the pin from the OCV reaching depth. Additionally, when not in limp mode (i.e. cam lockout mode) the car is it's normal self. There isnt the same power loss experienced from a blacked-out vvt solenoid, and theres no knocks or noise from one side popping out of time. Additionally, 2 shops I've taken it to say that the timing of the cams appears to be fine (which readings they couldn't get if the sensor weren't reading).

Admittedly, there could be intermediate loss of signal from the sensor, but switching the sensor doesnt cause the issue to follow bank.

All that said;
1, will deleting the code prevent limp mode?
2, what ECUs are interchangeable with a manual 13' FR-S? What about this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/13-Scion-FR...-/142752770889

Also, thanks for the help. The collective knowledge here is incredible.

[ermax]

From what I understand all ECUs are identical. You just need to use the correct rom for your car.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by thE_iyE

I've done quite a bit of digging, and I did check clearances on the sensor, even though I'm not convinced that a sensor that reads 1s and 0s would be affected by gap in any way other than only reporting 0s, or only reporting 1s. If you have a signal that's giving information, gapping the sensor really isnt the issue.

The OCV isnt the issue either, as the problem doesnt follow bank when switched.

The sprocket could* be the issue, but I have not seen the same problems others have. The sprocket is not loose from the housing, the spring in the back hasn't popped, and theres no obstruction in the plunger that would prevent the pin from the OCV reaching depth. Additionally, when not in limp mode (i.e. cam lockout mode) the car is it's normal self. There isnt the same power loss experienced from a blacked-out vvt solenoid, and theres no knocks or noise from one side popping out of time. Additionally, 2 shops I've taken it to say that the timing of the cams appears to be fine (which readings they couldn't get if the sensor weren't reading).

Admittedly, there could be intermediate loss of signal from the sensor, but switching the sensor doesnt cause the issue to follow bank.

All that said;
1, will deleting the code prevent limp mode?
2, what ECUs are interchangeable with a manual 13' FR-S? What about this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/13-Scion-FR...-/142752770889

Also, thanks for the help. The collective knowledge here is incredible.

Originally Posted by ermax

From what I understand all ECUs are identical. You just need to use the correct rom for your car.

As ermx said, AFAIK all 2012-2016 ecu auto or manual frs\86\brz all same hardware you jyst need to flash in a correct calid for your car. Ensure you use latest factory update ie a minium of a ZA1A01x rom where x is your country calid.


Im also fairly sure the 2017+ ecu are same jyst have not swapowed one of those yet into an older car



Ecu swap proceedure here


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102810




Your only drama is if your ecutek tuned you will need to organise with tuner to swap your licience into new\used ecu.


Yes disabling the ckde in tune prevents ecu from taking action on that code so will prevent limp mode on that code. But if cams actually dont activate or phase coreectly power loss or other issues may result

[steve99]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-SCION-...1&isGTR=1#shId


Or ecu above even chearper

[TheStig85]

I know the latest revision of the ECU (Used in '14) which works with the early '13 models is Part No. 22765AG511

I purchased one and installed it. Works without any issues.

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[thE_iyE]

I had the shop delete the code Monday, got my OBDLink with enhanced features the same day from Amazon prime. I've been monitoring it since. Everything looks normal.

Maybe deleting the code will allow the computer to re-zero the values as the aim value (which I believe is the 'zero value) stated at around 60% and has rolled back to 55% in just a few days. I'm almost curious I'd just allowing p0016 back on the ECU would be a bad idea...

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[ermax]

Originally Posted by thE_iyE

I had the shop delete the code Monday, got my OBDLink with enhanced features the same day from Amazon prime. I've been monitoring it since. Everything looks normal.

Maybe deleting the code will allow the computer to re-zero the values as the aim value (which I believe is the 'zero value) stated at around 60% and has rolled back to 55% in just a few days. I'm almost curious I'd just allowing p0016 back on the ECU would be a bad idea...

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That’s interesting. Maybe leave it disabled for a few months and then re-enable it to see if it comes back.

[ninjabutt]

Howdy, folks! New 86 owner here, I came across a 2014 BRZ with 76k in excellent condition for a steal of a deal due to a p0016 code and while the code is suboptimal, the troubleshooter in me is excited to dig in and help put more info on the issue out into the community.

First off I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, it has been the most helpful compilation of info I have come across. Hopefully my experience can add useful info to help the next lost soul.

In an effort to diagnose the root cause instead of throwing money at the problem I have swapped OCVs, swapped CPSs, and run BG EPR Engine flush with my oil change (as advised by a local Subaru tech). I have not yet massaged anything but I'll rub whatever needs to be rubbed if it helps lol.

No change from left to right so sensor malfunction is [likely] ruled out.

2014 model ECU suggests that I have an acceptable CalID (to be confirmed later today upon arrival of my obdlink tool. If I can find it, lol. This is uncharted territory for me. I plan to use the torque pro app and/or whatever app comes with the OBDLink).

After the flush/oil change, I drove around for 4 on/off cycles with no code reappearance but the code came back on the first drive of the following day. I may do another engine flush to see if I can replicate the event. I will report back on this as well. I used Castrol Edge 0w20 this time but I don't know what was used prior and I know that some oil can become significantly thicker after heat cycles. second flush and oil change timeline will be determined by camshaft value information to be gained later today. I chose Castrol Edge due to online rankings and hearsay that the fa20 doesn't like my usual first choice, Mobil1. I will likely try a different oil next change, possible liquimoly unless I find info on another superior oil.

I have an obdlink coming in the mail today so I'll be able to get my initial learned values. Based on this page http://www.armstrongfamilyblog.com/a...relation-p0018, there is an acceptable range within the learned values. I can hopefully figure it out myself with whatever app is supposed to be used with the code reader, but if one of you guys has the chance to elaborate on the method of pulling the Initial Learned Values (ILVs) in the meantime, it would be appreciated.




I ordered a used ECU that should arrive early next week to compare ILVs and attempt to log any changes. If the code disappears with the new ECU (fingers crossed), I'll keep it plugged in and check the ILVs periodically to see if they creep towards the current ECU values and change cam gears as the numbers approach the parameter limits. I went this route instead of changing the cam gears first for "science purposes" lol, and because the ECU was $130 +30 minutes of non-labor vs $400 ($175+$200+shipping) and 6-10 manual labor hours for the new cam sprockets with a likely additional cost of ECU replacement afterwards.

Also, it looks like you guys are using TechStream to get a lot of this info. I tried to find a legit copy only but all the download links look scammy so I'm hesitant. I found this thread but it's all outdated and all the links are broken. Does anyone have a reliable source? Is this software even necessary?

Another possibly important piece of information, it seems that the code only comes back while driving and I can sit in my driveway and run through the RPMs as much as I want without throwing the code. This is unconfirmed due to low sample size but thought it may be of note.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by ninjabutt

Howdy, folks! New 86 owner here, I came across a 2014 BRZ with 76k in excellent condition for a steal of a deal due to a p0016 code and while the code is suboptimal, the troubleshooter in me is excited to dig in and help put more info on the issue out into the community.



First off I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, it has been the most helpful compilation of info I have come across. Hopefully my experience can add useful info to help the next lost soul.



In an effort to diagnose the root cause instead of throwing money at the problem I have swapped OCVs, swapped CPSs, and run BG EPR Engine flush with my oil change (as advised by a local Subaru tech). I have not yet massaged anything but I'll rub whatever needs to be rubbed if it helps lol.



No change from left to right so sensor malfunction is [likely] ruled out.



2014 model ECU suggests that I have an acceptable CalID (to be confirmed later today upon arrival of my obdlink tool. If I can find it, lol. This is uncharted territory for me. I plan to use the torque pro app and/or whatever app comes with the OBDLink).



After the flush/oil change, I drove around for 4 on/off cycles with no code reappearance but the code came back on the first drive of the following day. I may do another engine flush to see if I can replicate the event. I will report back on this as well. I used Castrol Edge 0w20 this time but I don't know what was used prior and I know that some oil can become significantly thicker after heat cycles. second flush and oil change timeline will be determined by camshaft value information to be gained later today. I chose Castrol Edge due to online rankings and hearsay that the fa20 doesn't like my usual first choice, Mobil1. I will likely try a different oil next change, possible liquimoly unless I find info on another superior oil.



I have an obdlink coming in the mail today so I'll be able to get my initial learned values. Based on this page http://www.armstrongfamilyblog.com/a...relation-p0018, there is an acceptable range within the learned values. I can hopefully figure it out myself with whatever app is supposed to be used with the code reader, but if one of you guys has the chance to elaborate on the method of pulling the Initial Learned Values (ILVs) in the meantime, it would be appreciated.









I ordered a used ECU that should arrive early next week to compare ILVs and attempt to log any changes. If the code disappears with the new ECU (fingers crossed), I'll keep it plugged in and check the ILVs periodically to see if they creep towards the current ECU values and change cam gears as the numbers approach the parameter limits. I went this route instead of changing the cam gears first for "science purposes" lol, and because the ECU was $130 +30 minutes of non-labor vs $400 ($175+$200+shipping) and 6-10 manual labor hours for the new cam sprockets with a likely additional cost of ECU replacement afterwards.



Also, it looks like you guys are using TechStream to get a lot of this info. I tried to find a legit copy only but all the download links look scammy so I'm hesitant. I found this thread but it's all outdated and all the links are broken. Does anyone have a reliable source? Is this software even necessary?



Another possibly important piece of information, it seems that the code only comes back while driving and I can sit in my driveway and run through the RPMs as much as I want without throwing the code. This is unconfirmed due to low sample size but thought it may be of note.

As far as I know only Techstream gives these values. The only “legit” way to get Techstream is through Toyota. Also, Techstream isn’t compatible with all adapters. Hopefully yours is.

[ninjabutt]

Ok thanks. is this screenshot from techstream or from obdlink? I plugged my obdlink in this morning before the baby woke up but didn't see these options.



I know you said that the values are likely only available through techstream but this looks like a cell phone screenshot and I was under the impression that I would be using techstream with my laptop.

Edit: thanks again for any help, I'll do more digging during naptime later today

[TheStig85]

Originally Posted by ninjabutt

Ok thanks. is this screenshot from techstream or from obdlink? I plugged my obdlink in this morning before the baby woke up but didn't see these options.



I know you said that the values are likely only available through techstream but this looks like a cell phone screenshot and I was under the impression that I would be using techstream with my laptop.

Edit: thanks again for any help, I'll do more digging during naptime later today

I could be wrong but I believe if your car is throwing a code, you don't get all the true values for VVT. Either way, I don't think you can view the VVT learning values without Tech stream. Somewhere in the thread I was guided to buying and downloading the software. Everything worked out smoothly. Good tool to have regardless and only cost me about $20 for the cable.

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