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Old 11-21-2019, 12:48 AM   #71
Irace86.2.0
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Originally Posted by Spuds View Post
It's essentially the same question, but that's not important.

1. With hydrogen, you don't need to charge at home. I get along just fine stopping by the gas station when I need to. Plus, right now, in 2019, it works, as-is, no further mad science projects needed. I don't need to be hypothetical if the technology is already there. It got this far even without some billionaire playboy cultist "leading" the way. The only hypothetical statement is what could have been if he had been promoting hydrogen vehicles instead. Or just not done anything.

2. If you really need to fuel up at home, generating hydrogen is actually pretty easy. First Google result from 2016, IDK how it's going, but it had similar amounts of speculation as you are suggesting, and that was 3 years ago. Bottom line, $2K for a home unit that should be more than you need for a car.

https://www.computerworld.com/articl...ings-cars.html

3. Hydrogen may be less efficient due to energy conversion, but they are more efficient in terms of kinetic energy. A hydrogen-powered car does not need to rely on a massive battery to get decent range.

4. I'm assuming by numbers you mean sales/people. Why do people buy designer handbags, or fancy shoes, or Starbucks coffee? It's all a status symbol, and completely influenced by marketing. I can give you a few great examples of times when popularity of an idea wasn't an indication of the soundness of said idea.

5. If EVs are the right solution, why do you suppose real car companies like Toyota are still investing in hydrogen vehicle technology?
1. Ehh, the Elon anecdotes are getting old. The hypothetical is with speculating about how these two techs compare when the infrastructure doesn't exist and getting there could be the biggest obstacle. It isn't like California, for instance, isn't trying, and there is no reason why Toyota couldn't make their own stations, except the investment would be large:

Quote:
California station development was encouraged and subsidized by the California Fuel Cell Partnership, and under Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's California Hydrogen Highway program.[47][48] In 2013 Governor Brown signed AB 8, a bill to fund 20 million a year for 10 years for up to 100 stations.[49] The California Energy Commission funded $46.6 million for 28 stations to be completed in 2016, making significant progress towards the goal of establishing a 100-station refueling network in California.[50] As of August 2018, California had 35 stations open and 29 more were expected to open before 2020.[51]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrog...#North_America

2. That is cool if it works out someday, but it seems far less convenient to create hydrogen at home then have to use it to charge a car battery, when charging a battery directly would take two seconds to plug in a charger. I already do that now with my trickle charger for my Braille battery, as well as, my phone and laptop. What's one more thing?

3. I don't get your point? The Toyota Mirai weighs 4078lbs. The Model 3 weighs 3552-4072lbs. The Mirai has a battery, motor, a hydrogen cell and a hydrogen to electric converter, so yes, a smaller battery, but more stuff. There is less space in the hydrogen car; there is less safety in crash tests; there is less performance (0-60 of 9.0s).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3

4. It is either a status symbol theory, or the infrastructure isn't in place to make hydrogen cars popular/feasible; where anyone who has a home could charge an electric car, which is the other theory for why they are so successful. Superchargers only exist to allow for far distance travel for people who want to travel far distances in a Tesla or who have no other car in their household (most families do), or they are for people without access to a home charger or a close standard charger.

5. "Real car companies." Is there really a need for these stabs or insulting anecdotes? They get old. Toyota is investing in hydrogen for many reasons. For one thing, they already have invested in the technology, so it behooves them to try and make it work than cutting their losses. They could also be doing it because that is what could work in places like Japan or in some markets. Why aren't they working on electric? Because they already know how to make electric because they have been making hybrids forever, so maybe they don't believe the hype or tech is there (others do). Maybe they don't want to buck their current practices until the last minute when they will then dive into the market. Maybe they are quietly working on their tech, and they will wait for the batteries to reach more mileage or be cheaper. Volvo, VW and others do believe the hype, which is why they are plunging into development.
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:26 AM   #72
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4. It is either a status symbol theory, or the infrastructure isn't in place to make hydrogen cars popular/feasible; where anyone who has a home could charge an electric car, which is the other theory for why they are so successful. Superchargers only exist to allow for far distance travel for people who want to travel far distances in a Tesla or who have no other car in their household (most families do), or they are for people without access to a home charger or a close standard charger.
Here's where I think electric cars break down as a total replacement for ICE, it's the argument that most people have a different car for traveling long distance. Isn't the whole point to make the legacy platforms go away?

If we want a replacement for ICE then we need to consider what the vehicle does in all missions. Yes, daily commuting it is fine as long as you stay within the round trip range of the car charged at home.

But what about all the other uses of vehicles? Long distance travel is not practical (to me) in an electric vehicle. Could I drive one pretty much anywhere? Sure as long as I'm not in a hurry (back to the time is money argument) and I make sure to plan my trip to the nth detail if I'm going outside the Interstate system. (Yes, its getting better). Not a compromise I'm willing to make yet and I do good bit of that.


The Military, for example, will not be able to run off batteries.

Honestly, I don't think there is one single viable solution, different fuels for different purposes. My concern is we go all in on one, without considering the bigger picture.
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:32 AM   #73
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You lost me with this one....
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:35 AM   #74
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You lost me with this one....
https://www.ice.gov/

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Old 11-21-2019, 08:09 AM   #75
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:46 AM   #76
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Sorry. Im missing the joke or your point.
I sort of confused the matter by skipping a step.


The statement in question was:
"But the internal combustion engine runs on ordinary gasoline, it always has....Without gasoline, we can't get the DeLorean up to 88 miles per hour."


This only applied to the first version of the time machine.
In the BTTF universe the ICE engine probably disappeared some time around 2010. If the tech to make the Mr Fusion fuel source was a consumer level commodity by 2015 it means that at least enough time had gone by for it to become the norm. With that fuel source the ICE engine would not be needed at all even for normal "driving".
In fact by then not only does it not need gasoline for the ICE...





The locomotive takes it even further in that it doesn't even have an ICE since steam power is external combustion.


On a side note there is not a hope in hell of getting an ICE DeLorean up to 88mph in the distances shown anyway. It would be impossible with a 10+ 0 to 60. Need to be a bloody big parking lot.


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Old 11-21-2019, 09:41 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
1. Ehh, the Elon anecdotes are getting old. The hypothetical is with speculating about how these two techs compare when the infrastructure doesn't exist and getting there could be the biggest obstacle. It isn't like California, for instance, isn't trying, and there is no reason why Toyota couldn't make their own stations, except the investment would be large:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrog...#North_America

2. That is cool if it works out someday, but it seems far less convenient to create hydrogen at home then have to use it to charge a car battery, when charging a battery directly would take two seconds to plug in a charger. I already do that now with my trickle charger for my Braille battery, as well as, my phone and laptop. What's one more thing?

3. I don't get your point? The Toyota Mirai weighs 4078lbs. The Model 3 weighs 3552-4072lbs. The Mirai has a battery, motor, a hydrogen cell and a hydrogen to electric converter, so yes, a smaller battery, but more stuff. There is less space in the hydrogen car; there is less safety in crash tests; there is less performance (0-60 of 9.0s).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3

4. It is either a status symbol theory, or the infrastructure isn't in place to make hydrogen cars popular/feasible; where anyone who has a home could charge an electric car, which is the other theory for why they are so successful. Superchargers only exist to allow for far distance travel for people who want to travel far distances in a Tesla or who have no other car in their household (most families do), or they are for people without access to a home charger or a close standard charger.

5. "Real car companies." Is there really a need for these stabs or insulting anecdotes? They get old. Toyota is investing in hydrogen for many reasons. For one thing, they already have invested in the technology, so it behooves them to try and make it work than cutting their losses. They could also be doing it because that is what could work in places like Japan or in some markets. Why aren't they working on electric? Because they already know how to make electric because they have been making hybrids forever, so maybe they don't believe the hype or tech is there (others do). Maybe they don't want to buck their current practices until the last minute when they will then dive into the market. Maybe they are quietly working on their tech, and they will wait for the batteries to reach more mileage or be cheaper. Volvo, VW and others do believe the hype, which is why they are plunging into development.
1. You just showed that the investment for hydrogen infrastructure is smaller than it was for batteries alone.

2. It's far more convenient to not need to create hydrogen at home than it is to install home charging infrastructure. Not everyone can get a type 2 charger, and type 1s aren't going to cut it by my quick estimate. Even a type 2 might be too slow in some situations.

3. The Mirai uses NiMH batteries and a motor designed for use in conjunction with an gas engine to power the car. It's a large-scale test bed, not an optimized solution. I need to check in on the 2021 version, I hear that's much better in some ways.

4. Dadhawk's response is about what I would say.

5. Volvo, VW, and others are catering to market hype. If battery vehicles are what consumers want, boy can they pump out some battery vehicles and make a quick buck. The fact that Toyota and others continue to invest is indicative of a good, competitive solution that just doesn't have the marketing behind it. Nobody is seriously investing in solar powered or even wind-powered cars (sails) because those are simply bad solutions.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:45 AM   #78
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https://www.ice.gov/

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All right


STOP

Collaborate and listen...
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:02 AM   #79
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1. You just showed that the investment for hydrogen infrastructure is smaller than it was for batteries alone.



2. It's far more convenient to not need to create hydrogen at home than it is to install home charging infrastructure. Not everyone can get a type 2 charger, and type 1s aren't going to cut it by my quick estimate. Even a type 2 might be too slow in some situations.



3. The Mirai uses NiMH batteries and a motor designed for use in conjunction with an gas engine to power the car. It's a large-scale test bed, not an optimized solution. I need to check in on the 2021 version, I hear that's much better in some ways.



4. Dadhawk's response is about what I would say.



5. Volvo, VW, and others are catering to market hype. If battery vehicles are what consumers want, boy can they pump out some battery vehicles and make a quick buck. The fact that Toyota and others continue to invest is indicative of a good, competitive solution that just doesn't have the marketing behind it. Nobody is seriously investing in solar powered or even wind-powered cars (sails) because those are simply bad solutions.
If you have a 2k mi range though charging at home once a week it's practical.. (or buy a Tesla tractor truck and just drive it bobtail as a commuter/apartment?)

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Old 11-21-2019, 10:04 AM   #80
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2. It's far more convenient to not need to create hydrogen at home than it is to install home charging infrastructure. Not everyone can get a type 2 charger, and type 1s aren't going to cut it by my quick estimate. Even a type 2 might be too slow in some situations..
Yep. The only reason "charging at home" is a thing is that without this EVs don't meet anyone's needs. If you could charge up an EV to full capacity in under 15 minutes, all current fueling locations would give up a few petrol pumps, or incorporate it into the existing pumps just like diesel/E85/etc.

No one would buy an EV of you couldn't charge it at home. By the same token, very few people would try to power up a fuel cell at home if it can be done at the local station in a reasonable amount of time (which it could be).
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:10 AM   #81
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If you have a 2k mi range though charging at home once a week it's practical.. (or buy a Tesla tractor truck and just drive it bobtail as a commuter/apartment?)
Not if it takes days to do it. A Model S charges at a rate of 170 miles in 30 minutes on a L3 charger, so that would be 5 hours to reach 2,000 miles on supercharger.

A level 2 home charger does at best 50 miles of range per hour, so 40 hours.

Reference here.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:12 AM   #82
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Not if it takes days to do it. A Model S charges at a rate of 170 miles in 30 minutes on a L3 charger, so that would be 5 hours to reach 2,000 miles on supercharger.

A level 2 home charger does at best 50 miles of range per hour, so 40 hours.

Reference here.
I meant more for fuel cell don't they have a good range? (Tesla tractor would be the viable alternative LOL)

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Old 11-21-2019, 01:31 PM   #83
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I think you guys are creating more of a problem than what exists. The car meets the needs of the masses, but not everyone. No one is claiming anything different.

The average person drives 30 miles a day:

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new...torists-drive/

The time to recharge that 30 miles on a V3 Supercharger is around 3 minutes. Faster than most people spend in line at Starbucks every morning.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...er-tested/amp/

If someone doesn’t want to install a 240v outlet then the 120v will add 3-5 miles of range per hour, which is 8-10 hours of charging for 30 miles. A 240v socket like that of a dryer or stove from an older home will add 22 miles of range per hour, so it would take 1.5 hours to add 30 miles. Again, for the vast majority of people, this meets their daily needs.

https://teslatap.com/articles/tesla-...harging-guide/
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:34 PM   #84
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I think you guys are creating more of a problem than what exists. The car meets the needs of the masses, but not everyone. No one is claiming anything different.

The average person drives 30 miles a day:

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new...torists-drive/

The time to recharge that 30 miles on a V3 Supercharger is around 3 minutes. Faster than most people spend in line at Starbucks every morning.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...er-tested/amp/

If someone doesn’t want to install a 240v outlet then the 120v will add 3-5 miles of range per hour, which is 8-10 hours of charging for 30 miles. A 240v socket like that of a dryer or stove from an older home will add 22 miles of range per hour, so it would take 1.5 hours to add 30 miles. Again, for the vast majority of people, this meets their daily needs.

https://teslatap.com/articles/tesla-...harging-guide/
Yeah electric cars are fine if you live and work in the same town.

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