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Old 11-01-2019, 11:41 PM   #309
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I get why they didn't do it the first time around, citing too many changes required to the vehicle, not to mention time and development cost constraints. But on a second go-around, and knowing what some buyers want and have been willing to pay for, with time to now make the necessary changes, what is stopping them?
1) We don't know yet that anything is stopping them.
2) If I knew I would be an automotive exec making far more money than I do now and I would not be driving a Toyota.
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:24 AM   #310
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I would hate to be in business with some of the people on here.

I'm certain they have no idea of how to run a business to actually make a profit.

I wonder if all of the people making the statements actually purchase "new" cars.

How many people would purchase a twin for over the price of a WRX STI?

How many twins would need to be sold at that price to cover all the R&D and upgraded parts used?

Here in AU, the difference between a Impresa ($26k aud) and a WRX ($45k aud) is $19k aud, assuming the costs would be typical, a turbo GTS 86 or BRZ with a drivetrain to suit and reliability to the standard of OEM warranty, from my rough hasty guestimations, it would cost upwards of $55 aud.

Would I buy one, hell yes, but to be profitable they would need to sell......alot, I could easily convince my Mrs that spending $55k aud for a STI because it has 5 usable seats and a big boot for the getting of kids and groceries, which is a typical story of all the people I know who own STI's, including the one I owned.

Buying a twin for $55k aud, my Mrs would cut my throat as I slept.

Most twin owners I know are people who buy them because they are cheap and look cool, or, as a sporty looking second car, that is cheap, this is why I purchased one.

Plus turbo's are easy to install, and if you don't go overboard with power it won't break everything, hopefully, and it will smoke standard WRX and WRX STI's.

Want more from your next new car, it's easy, just spend more coin.

My 86 total build cost (handling and power) is around $46k aud, or WRX money, worth every cent too, my car pisses on my old WRX STI's for fun, and has cost a hell of alot less.

My wish, just to be a ****, I would like Toyota to pull the pin with Subaru and they stop making the twins in 2021-22.

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Old 11-04-2019, 01:36 PM   #311
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A WRX here in the US costs about $9,000 more than an Impreza. But the equipment/standard features list isn't comparable (WRX has more) so it's not that simple. I'd imagine it's the same thing in AUS.

The price spread for a factory BRZ used to be roughly $26-32k (excluding tS). Not sure why people assume a factory turbo model would be $5-10k (US) on top of $32,000. It could just as easily be on top of the $26k (cheapest BRZ is now $28k but that's because the only trim available is now Limited.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:38 PM   #312
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They are just new to the car business and don't know that they are doing. maybe everybody that thinks it is easy and would be a home run should be in charge.


Exactly! My armchair CEO decisions would work dang it!.....for me anyway

But for real, how cool would a BRZ STI or 86 GR be?!


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Old 11-05-2019, 03:45 PM   #313
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The bottom line is this, Toyota COULD build a higher performance version of the 86 if they really wanted to. So could Subaru, but they don’t want to piss off Toyota. Toyota COULD have built a new inline 6 for the Supra, that would go in a Toyota derived chassis. They choose not to for costs savings, that much is obvious. Would doing those above things bankrupt Toyota? Helllll no, but they aren’t too concerned about the 1% of us that would buy a high performance 86, or bespoke Supra.


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Old 11-05-2019, 10:04 PM   #314
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The bottom line is this, Toyota COULD build a higher performance version of the 86 if they really wanted to.
Yep, easily. But it wasn't part of the corporate plan for the twins.

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Would doing those above things bankrupt Toyota? Helllll no, but they aren’t too concerned about the 1% of us that would buy a high performance 86, or bespoke Supra.
I don't think it is that, I think that Akio and Tada do care about the enthusiasts. Instead, I think it is simply a case of a turbo 86 being uncomfortably close to the base Supra, especially the B48 versions sold in Japan and other places potentially. Remember, BMW approached Tada at the launch of the 86 which was back in what, 2012? So Toyota must have known about the potential of a new Supra since the moment the 86 was put on sale, and that has to have factored into their product planning ever since.

Leaving enough performance space and not having cheaper models overtaking the performance of the more expensive models is an important element of product planning for a manufacturer. Just ask Porsche, who make sure there is always enough performance gap between the Cayman and the 911 to justify the price difference and entice buyers into the more expensive model (with potentially higher profit margins per unit). I think it is a similar thing with the 86 and Supra. Toyota already answered enthusiasts who keep crying out for a turbo 86 – “Buy a Supra!”
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:39 AM   #315
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Yep, easily. But it wasn't part of the corporate plan for the twins.



I don't think it is that, I think that Akio and Tada do care about the enthusiasts. Instead, I think it is simply a case of a turbo 86 being uncomfortably close to the base Supra, especially the B48 versions sold in Japan and other places potentially. Remember, BMW approached Tada at the launch of the 86 which was back in what, 2012? So Toyota must have known about the potential of a new Supra since the moment the 86 was put on sale, and that has to have factored into their product planning ever since.

Leaving enough performance space and not having cheaper models overtaking the performance of the more expensive models is an important element of product planning for a manufacturer. Just ask Porsche, who make sure there is always enough performance gap between the Cayman and the 911 to justify the price difference and entice buyers into the more expensive model (with potentially higher profit margins per unit). I think it is a similar thing with the 86 and Supra. Toyota already answered enthusiasts who keep crying out for a turbo 86 – “Buy a Supra!”


You make some really good points, and Toyota wants to make sure the Supra is a step above the 86. And it costs more so it should. I still think a hotter version of the 86 would have been a good move. I could see current 86/FR-S owners trading up for that. And this could all be addressed with the 2nd gen twins. I love so many things about the new Supra, and I haven’t driven one so I can’t comment on the driving experience compared to the 86. From reviews it does seem to correct some of the issues with the 86, but I’m also disappointed. I don’t like the reliance on BMW or their engines. They were jerks from the beginning of the partnership, like making the Toyota engineers wait outside in a tent instead of inviting them in to the BMW headquarters. I can’t believe how humble Toyota remained through it all, they must have been spending a lot of off hours in a Zen garden.
The smug attitude of German car makers is exactly the reason I wanted Toyota to create their own Supra, something that could hang with a 911 but at a lower price. The Supra should be a bad ass sporty GT car. The MkV Supra is really just a marketing name, it could have been called anything. I think Celica is more fitting.
I applaud Toyota for building some of the best cars on the planet. I’ve put countless miles on their products with zero problems. They really know how to build features into each model that fit exactly what the consumer wants. I will be very happy to buy a current 86 with the handling package, or a 2nd gen if they add some more power. The partnership with Subaru I’m totally ok with, I’ve always been a fan of both brands.


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Old 11-06-2019, 02:33 AM   #316
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I still think a hotter version of the 86 would have been a good move.
So do I, and I would have paid more (within reason) for a turbo 86 from the factory, but ultimately Toyota decided to provide the NA 86 for those on a budget, and the Supra for those with deeper pockets who want the extra performance.

Quote:
And this could all be addressed with the 2nd gen twins.
Only partially. The need for the same price+performance gap between any MkII 86 and base Supra remains. Remember, there is a turbo 4 cylinder B48 Supra as well. Toyota will not let any 86 approach the 4 cylinder Supra too closely in power, otherwise who would buy the B48 Supra? Certainly not me!

Quote:
new Supra... I don’t like the reliance on BMW or their engines.
Me neither. Although I am not in love with the FA20 engine, at least it is a Japanese engine in a Japanese sports car. And I like the low running costs and decent fuel economy.

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They were jerks from the beginning of the partnership, like making the Toyota engineers wait outside in a tent instead of inviting them in to the BMW headquarters.
What's that? I don't think I have heard that story.

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The MkV Supra is really just a marketing name, it could have been called anything. I think Celica is more fitting.
The Celica name has been applied to the entry level Toyota sporty car for decades now. The Supra has been the name for the halo sports car since the 80s. Calling their new halo sports car with 350 HP a Supra is fine IMO. I just wish it was not so ugly (I much prefer the styling of the 86), not full of BMW parts, and less expensive in Australia (it's almost unobtainium here, with only 300 units offered downunder per year - at its height Toyota were selling 300 86s per month here)!

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I will be very happy to buy a current 86 with the handling package, or a 2nd gen if they add some more power. The partnership with Subaru I’m totally ok with, I’ve always been a fan of both brands.
Yeah, me too! I don't mind the Toyobaru partnership, I am happy with the current gen 86/BRZ, and very excited to see what the gen II is like.

After being initially excited about the new Supra, the reality of the limited production, the high Australian price, the BMW engine and components, and the ugly styling has all but ruled it out for me. In Australia you can buy two and a half new 86 GTs (AUD 35k each) for the price of a single new Supra GT (AUD 92k)... that is even supposing you get get one of the 300 Supras allocated. Looks like I will be staying with team 86/BRZ for the foreseeable future.
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:41 AM   #317
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So do I, and I would have paid more (within reason) for a turbo 86 from the factory, but ultimately Toyota decided to provide the NA 86 for those on a budget, and the Supra for those with deeper pockets who want the extra performance.
And I’m ok with not going FI, that adds complexity, and cost. A turbo is probably the easiest way to add power and keep emissions in check. A supercharger option would have been cool. But both have their downsides. New turbo technology is pretty awesome though. I wonder how much more they could have pulled from the FA20 and stay NA.


Only partially. The need for the same price+performance gap between any MkII 86 and base Supra remains. Remember, there is a turbo 4 cylinder B48 Supra as well. Toyota will not let any 86 approach the 4 cylinder Supra too closely in power, otherwise who would buy the B48 Supra? Certainly not me!

That makes a lot of sense when you put it that way. A turbo 86 could potentially destroy the new 4 cylinder Supra. And the more I think about that the more I realize the 86 will never have forced induction. Like you said, the Supra exists for that.


Me neither. Although I am not in love with the FA20 engine, at least it is a Japanese engine in a Japanese sports car. And I like the low running costs and decent fuel economy.

I think the FA20 has its charming features, it’s a spunky little thing. Lol It’s always the underdog and I like that. I’m surprised at the fuel economy I can get with it, I average about 33mpg. How do you guys rate fuel mileage Down Under? You use Kilometers right?

What's that? I don't think I have heard that story.

I can’t remember all the details but a bunch of Toyota reps were never invited inside the BMW office, they had to wait outside. From what I remember it was very early on in the Supra/Z4 development cycle, so things probably improved after that, I hope. BMW engineers were also making comments about Toyota not knowing how to build a sports car. Basically they were being d*%k heads.

The Celica name has been applied to the entry level Toyota sporty car for decades now. The Supra has been the name for the halo sports car since the 80s. Calling their new halo sports car with 350 HP a Supra is fine IMO. I just wish it was not so ugly (I much prefer the styling of the 86), not full of BMW parts, and less expensive in Australia (it's almost unobtainium here, with only 300 units offered downunder per year - at its height Toyota were selling 300 86s per month here)!

Yeah that’s true, I suppose the 86 is more closely related to the Celica. I know the Supra originally evolved as a faster and better equipped Celica, so really Toyota should have created the MKV Supra using the 86.

Yeah, me too! I don't mind the Toyobaru partnership, I am happy with the current gen 86/BRZ, and very excited to see what the gen II is like.

After being initially excited about the new Supra, the reality of the limited production, the high Australian price, the BMW engine and components, and the ugly styling has all but ruled it out for me. In Australia you can buy two and a half new 86 GTs (AUD 35k each) for the price of a single new Supra GT (AUD 92k)... that is even supposing you get get one of the 300 Supras allocated. Looks like I will be staying with team 86/BRZ for the foreseeable future. [/quote]


That really sucks about pricing in Australia I hope your wages are higher at least! Lol I love watching Mighty Car Mods on YouTube, it makes me want to move to Australia



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Old 11-06-2019, 01:35 PM   #318
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Yep, easily. But it wasn't part of the corporate plan for the twins.



I don't think it is that, I think that Akio and Tada do care about the enthusiasts. Instead, I think it is simply a case of a turbo 86 being uncomfortably close to the base Supra, especially the B48 versions sold in Japan and other places potentially. Remember, BMW approached Tada at the launch of the 86 which was back in what, 2012? So Toyota must have known about the potential of a new Supra since the moment the 86 was put on sale, and that has to have factored into their product planning ever since.

Leaving enough performance space and not having cheaper models overtaking the performance of the more expensive models is an important element of product planning for a manufacturer. Just ask Porsche, who make sure there is always enough performance gap between the Cayman and the 911 to justify the price difference and entice buyers into the more expensive model (with potentially higher profit margins per unit). I think it is a similar thing with the 86 and Supra. Toyota already answered enthusiasts who keep crying out for a turbo 86 – “Buy a Supra!”
IMO this is a ridiculous notion, especially for Toyota. The last time they had 3 sports cars for sale at once (which they claim to be striving for again) there was HEAVY overlap.

Celica was available with FWD or AWD and 135-200+ hp
MR2 was available with 135-200+ hp
Supra was available with 220 or 320 hp

In one form or another any one of those 3 sports cars was faster than the other two. How one dimensional does Toyota think modern sports car customers are? I guess dumber than the demographics of 20 years ago who could tell a distinct difference (in total driving experience) between a 4/5 seat liftback coupe, a small 2 seat mid engine lightweight, or a 2+2 GT heavy weight?

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Old 11-06-2019, 01:49 PM   #319
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:51 AM   #320
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Doors that stay open.
Bring it up here for a winter. The arms will rust just enough that the door will stay open. Hopefully it doesn't reach the point where it can't be closed!
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:43 AM   #321
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Bring it up here for a winter. The arms will rust just enough that the door will stay open. Hopefully it doesn't reach the point where it can't be closed!
Another one of those Canadian-spec "Features"?
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:47 AM   #322
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Another one of those Canadian-spec "Features"?
Self adjusting based on climatic conditions.
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