CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[OICU812]

Well I'm no rocket scientist nor am I 1/100th knowledgeable in suspension as many folks here. However I've also learned by lurking who to listen to by proof of what they really know. Chances are if the folks who started this thread say something it's 90+ % for sure and I ain't no sheep jut a guy trying to learn more and make right decisions is all. So thanks to those that do put fourth known results with real world explanations for all is to understand and learn from.

I don't care for the bickering or confrontation that's just static is all, keep up all the conversation while its alot its very educational.

In my profession filled with various degrees of attitude and high levels of education one rule is strong and that is "there is no such thing as a stupid question" and there shouldn't be any other way cause every single person here was at that "first sports car" at one time. It isn't my first nor will it be my last but its a platform with a hell of a lot of variables.

I also get where Dimman is coming from. On various other forums for other interests in which I've been involved in for many years I've had to shut myself off from repeating myseld to questions asked years ago, many which I likely asked to lol. Then I take a deep breath don't post and remember I was that noob one day as well then I just chuckle to myself????

[Calum]

Originally Posted by OICU812

Well I'm no rocket scientist nor am I 1/100th knowledgeable in suspension as many folks here. However I've also learned by lurking who to listen to by proof of what they really know. Chances are if the folks who started this thread say something it's 90+ % for sure and I ain't no sheep jut a guy trying to learn more and make right decisions is all. So thanks to those that do put fourth known results with real world explanations for all is to understand and learn from.

I don't care for the bickering or confrontation that's just static is all, keep up all the conversation while its alot its very educational.

In my profession filled with various degrees of attitude and high levels of education one rule is strong and that is "there is no such thing as a stupid question" and there shouldn't be any other way cause every single person here was at that "first sports car" at one time. It isn't my first nor will it be my last but its a platform with a hell of a lot of variables.

I also get where Dimman is coming from. On various other forums for other interests in which I've been involved in for many years I've had to shut myself off from repeating myseld to questions asked years ago, many which I likely asked to lol. Then I take a deep breath don't post and remember I was that noob one day as well then I just chuckle to myself????

You are certainly not the person who the ones with the knowledge gets mad at. It's the people that bring more attitude then knowledge that piss people off.

My work is the same way with a big range of knowledge and skill sets. We often chew apart the ones that wont help themselves because we need guys that are self reliant and resourceful enough to work independently. But pretty well everyone there will make time for someone with the desire to learn.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Dimman

However it would take some biblical level of patience to put up with the mind numbing repeating questions.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ultra

There point I was trying to make is simply that there's always going to be many different segments in the market for aftermarket suspension for this car.

Instead of nitpicking why doesn't somebody with a little knowledge on the subject do up an infographic which plots brands/models/types of suspension packages against performance potential/usage type (lowering, fast street, light track, light competition, professional competition) on one axis, versus price on the other?

Could make for some interesting and possibly heated discussion between folks who actually care about such things while making things pretty simple for the lazy types out there.

When you get into the entry level high end stuff, you can't really go wrong. Rather, you go with what is most accessible and most suited to your specific need. At that stage, it's all about how well the whole system is tuned, rather than quality of the damper itself, and performance is highly dependent on the synergy between the driver and tuner.

Anything sub 4k, you get what you pay for, with a fairly high correlation, IMO.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mike156

Mike, when most mid/low end dampers have adjusters that are terrible though, how would somebody get into 2-ways to learn on them effectively? If the adjusters suck, anything you learn is likely to be wrong as you'll be seeing effects of cross-talk, valve hysteresis, and valve non-linearity and be mistaking it for what you thought was a quantified change. Also, a basic bleed valve adjuster really doesn’t have the effect you are really after anyway and it’s the valve stack that really needs to be changed to illicit the changes you are really after.

Ultimately, if a person isn't willing to spend the time to learn about how it works in theory for free (it's the internet, you can get SAE articles and books online for free all over the place, I'm not talking about forums here), they likely aren't going to spend the $3k it takes to get into a half decent 2-way adjustable setup either.

It's still better than nothing... right?

I'll be the first to admit that 100% of my suspension knowledge comes from two sources: the internet, and other people at the track.

I own zero textbooks or physical reading material regarding suspension. It's all internet, application, and meshing it with my pre-existing base of high school and college math and physics. All sources I've used are readily available to everyone, I think.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Calum

Man, you've been a gold mine lately.

It would be wrong of me to say 'We must nurture and teach the new members', without acknowledging the difficulties, right?

And for the record, I know I've been one of those question pestering guys here, ever since RCE joined up and sincerely appreciate the levels of patience shown by guys like the RCE team, CSG Mike, Robispec, @old greg (who hasn't been on in ages unfortunately...), ZDan, other new guys...

I do hope that my questions have helped lurkers and members that are at the same point as me of transitioning out of the basics, but still overwhelmed by the serious stuff, as much as the guys answering have helped me.

[brzadmir]

I know to each of their own but, take a stock BRZ; what would be your to do mods to create an ultimate handling BRZ?

[mike156]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's still better than nothing... right?

On learning from the internet or using low grade shocks to learn about damping changes?

If you are talking internet, the trick is obviously to establish a pretty good bullshit filter. Maybe this comes natural for some, but I find it easier just to look for peer reviewed journals.

If you are talking cheap shocks, all I can say is my butt dyno has definitely lead me astray before and when your mind says "I turned up the compression damping one click," the butt dyno tends to agree, even when the cheap shocks actually lost damping force....or quadrupled the force from the last click on one wheel and changed nothing on another. Hard to say on this one as if you don't understand the theory of what that adjustment should have changed, you'll never sort out these types of issues. Ultimately, the adjusters is where the cheap shocks fail miserably too.

[StormTrooper]

So after reading this, is there anything outside of tires that will benefit grip and make the car more stable and neutral under 4k.

I honestly don't have the budget to spend 10k on this car. ( full exhaust, light weight parts and brakes are priority)

I would like heavier steering and less bounce but not sure that will be easy.

[ZDan]

I don't have a specific recommendation for the FR-S, but I will just say that you don't need multiple knobs (or even one knob) to get a fantastic-handling setup that is smooove on the street. You need to ensure you get dampers that are suitable for your spring rate and unsprung mass, and that are highly digressive to bleed off damping at higher velocities from bumps and road irregularities.

I did just install Ohlins DFV on my RX-7, and the improvement in ride quality vs. MUCH softer Tein SS coilovers is just astonishing, despite springs that are 22%/57% stiffer. I would bet on them being well set up and with very favorable damping characteristics for the FR-S as well, but again, no direct experience...

Regarding steering "heaviness", with some adjustable coilovers you can mount the front upper mounts to provide additional caster with additional camber, but IMO heavier steering via caster is overrated for street/road course work, I actually like to keep it minimal. Dialing in "heaviness" can mask feel of subtle things going on at the ultimate limits of grip.

[FR-S Matt]

Question about camber. About to install my LCA's this weekend and I've got some Whiteline camber bolts for the front to go with the OEM Subaru crash bolts. How much negative can I run before I start seeing extensive tire wear? Trying to make my tires last their duration while still having a nice look to the car and hopefully a little increase to handling with negative camber. I'm trying to get a little negative camber both front and back so my +38 offset 18X9.5 RPF1's don't poke too much. I've read a little bit and seen others say stay below -2 degrees, otherwise tire wear begins to take effect. My rears actually look good with the stock LCA right now with a good amount of negative camber, but nothing major. The fronts on the other hand are most likely at 0 camber.

Is -1.5 front/rear a bad number to aim for? Will I suffer any effects from having the same camber on both sections or should I aim for a little more/less specifically on the front or back?

Definitely want 0 toe all around hence why I got the SPC LCA's with the toe kit. I figure I'll need to get it aligned again after changing the camber.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

Question about camber. About to install my LCA's this weekend and I've got some Whiteline camber bolts for the front to go with the OEM Subaru crash bolts. How much negative can I run before I start seeing extensive tire wear?.

unless you're aiming for anything above 5, your not gonna get tirewear from camber, plus you can always flip them.

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

Definitely want 0 toe all around hence why I got the SPC LCA's with the toe kit. I figure I'll need to get it aligned again after changing the camber.

you most definitely do NOT want 0 toe all around. 0 toe in the rear is dangerous on the street. you want a little bit of toe in in the rear for high-speed stability.

[FR-S Matt]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

unless you're aiming for anything above 5, your not gonna get tirewear from camber, plus you can always flip them.



you most definitely do NOT want 0 toe all around. 0 toe in the rear is dangerous on the street. you want a little bit of toe in in the rear for high-speed stability.

What kind of number would you recommend, 1/16"?

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

What kind of number would you recommend, 1/16"?

yep, 1/16 per side sounds bout right

make sure you find a good alignment place though, one that lets you sit in the car, etc.