(GR86) Second Generation FR-S/BRZ insider info...

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by Spuds

I would also be alright with that, I think...

Would Subaru? Have they ever had a non-boxer engine, or someone else's engine in their cars?

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Again, why do y'all want a truck engine in your sports car?

Maybe you are being flippant, but it isn’t a truck engine anymore than it’s little brother the FA20 is. FA24 is just a 2.4 turbo boxer designed as a replacement for the outgoing NA V6 engines in things like the Legacy sedan, wagons like the Outback, and SUVs like the Ascent.

The FA24 can be used in any car with the tune adjusted to suit the application. In the Ascent and Outback, the FA24 is tuned more for low-mid range torque, but with a low rev limit, hence the modest 260HP. But there is absolutely no reason the rev limit can’t be raised, torque adjusted and engine retuned to offer more top end power for a sportscar application. Exactly as Subaru and Toyota did with the FA20, which in standard NA or turbo forms is a lower revving engine than the one in the twins.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by J1Avs

From a purely hypothetical perspective, this 1.8T would make sense if they go turbo.

Agree, a 2.4T is too close to the B48 Supra, in fact in a lighter 86 chassis a 260HP FA24 would probably make the 86 faster than the 4 cylinder Supra, and that would not be allowed, it spoils the product ladder as you say.

A 1.8T, however, would make sense, especially as the Levorg and WRX look like this is what they are getting. As you noted, it can be retuned so as to output a little less than WRX (but hopefully easily recoverable with tuning).

Where the 2.4 might make sense is if they make it NA and tune it to rev high, just like they did with the FA20 in the current twins. That was a very old rumour, NA FA24. I find it really odd that the latest clickbaity articles picked up on the already old FA24 rumour but suggested it would stay turbo. I highly doubt that.

So, my best three guesses are, in no particular order;

- 2.4 NA, 220ish HP
- 1.8 T, 220ish HP
- 2.0 NA, 205HP (yes, maybe they reuse the existing FA20!)

Much as I’d like the 2.4T, I don’t think they will do it.

[Dirty Harry]

^This. Yeah I reckon that order is likely as to what will happen. It'd be good if Sportsbet or Ladbrokes or another betting agency had odds on it, Lol. 2.4T would be 100 to 1. Can't see that happening.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Maybe you are being flippant, but it isn’t a truck engine anymore than it’s little brother the FA20 is. FA24 is just a 2.4 turbo boxer designed as a replacement for the outgoing NA V6 engines in things like the Legacy sedan, wagons like the Outback, and SUVs like the Ascent.

The FA24 can be used in any car with the tune adjusted to suit the application. In the Ascent and Outback, the FA24 is tuned more for low-mid range torque, but with a low rev limit, hence the modest 260HP. But there is absolutely no reason the rev limit can’t be raised, torque adjusted and engine retuned to offer more top end power for a sportscar application. Exactly as Subaru and Toyota did with the FA20, which in standard NA or turbo forms is a lower revving engine than the one in the twins.

Actual sports car engines and truck engines have serious internal differences, particularly when you consider top end power and acceleration vs low end torque and hauling capacity.

You're right, there is no reason why Subaru can't make a completely different engine for this low volume car that happens to have the same displacement as the 2.4 truck engine they have in their truck. There are just a whole lot of reasons why they won't.

Also, Subaru had an H6, not a V6. I've had 2 of them.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Actual sports car engines and truck engines have serious internal differences, particularly when you consider top end power and acceleration vs low end torque and hauling capacity.

Um, but we are not talking about the next Cayman or 911 here, we are discussing the Twins. The existing FA20 is literally just a retuned version of the same mass production 2.0 engine Subaru puts in the Impreza (NA) and WRX (Turbo). For the twins, Toyota and Subaru raised the redline, slapped Toyota’s D4S on it, and had to work to eek 200 HP out of it. They didn’t do anything bespoke to the internals at all, and indeed, the stock rods are a known weakness when people go FI.

So our existing FA20 is not a dedicated or bespoke sportscar engine with amazing internals, it is a mass production economy car engine applied to a budget sportscar purpose, and it will be exactly the same for the mkII twins. It will not be a bespoke sportscar engine with unique internals either, if they stick with a Subaru engine it will again be one of Subaru’s regular FA engines (used in other cars) with stock internals and some retuning for the application.

You're right, there is no reason why Subaru can't make a completely different engine for this low volume car that happens to have the same displacement as the 2.4 truck engine they have in their truck.

What are you talking about? The FA24 already exists and the Ascent is not a truck (it’s an SUV), nor is the Outback (wagon) or the Legacy (sedan). We are discussing the FA24 boxer introduced in 2018 in the Ascent SUV. As an FA series engine, it is very similar to the existing FA20 but with a bigger bore to increase displacement. It’s not a truck engine. I don’t know why you keep saying that, have you not actually read anything about the actual engine under discussion? Here:

The FA24F was introduced in 2018 initially for the 2019 model year Subaru Ascent. The bore is increased compared to prior FA20 engines, increasing displacement to 2.4 L (2,387 cm3).[12] The engine has an all aluminum head and block in order to keep weight and warm-up times low[13]. Direct injection and a turbocharger are used to provide output comparable to a 6-cylinder naturally aspirated engine, and the FA24 uses "regular" (87 AKI) fuel.[14] At the 2019 Chicago Auto Show, Subaru unveiled the 2020 model year Subaru Legacy sedan, available starting in fall 2019 and featuring the FA24 as the uplevel engine option.[15] The 2020 model year Subaru Outback also featured the FA24 as the uplevel option.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_FA_engine

There are just a whole lot of reasons why they won't.

Why wouldn’t they use an existing engine they already have if they decide it is fit for purpose and economical enough? It would cost more to develop an entirely new engine just for the twins. That is highly unlikely.

Also, Subaru had an H6, not a V6. I've had 2 of them.

My bad, yes the FA24 is a replacement for Subaru’s flat 6 in cars like the Legacy.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Um, but we are not talking about the next Cayman or 911 here, we are discussing the Twins. The existing FA20 is literally just a retuned version of the same mass production 2.0 engine Subaru puts in the Impreza (NA) and WRX (Turbo). For the twins, Toyota and Subaru raised the redline, slapped Toyota’s D4S on it, and had to work to eek 200 HP out of it. They didn’t do anything bespoke to the internals at all, and indeed, the stock rods are a known weakness when people go FI.

So our existing FA20 is not a dedicated or bespoke sportscar engine with amazing internals, it is a mass production economy car engine applied to a budget sportscar purpose, and it will be exactly the same for the mkII twins. It will not be a bespoke sportscar engine with unique internals either, if they stick with a Subaru engine it will again be one of Subaru’s regular FA engines (used in other cars) with stock internals and some retuning for the application.



What are you talking about? The FA24 already exists and the Ascent is not a truck (it’s an SUV), nor is the Outback (wagon) or the Legacy (sedan). We are discussing the FA24 boxer introduced in 2018 in the Ascent SUV. As an FA series engine, it is very similar to the existing FA20 but with a bigger bore to increase displacement. It’s not a truck engine. I don’t know why you keep saying that, have you not actually read anything about the actual engine under discussion? Here:

The FA24F was introduced in 2018 initially for the 2019 model year Subaru Ascent. The bore is increased compared to prior FA20 engines, increasing displacement to 2.4 L (2,387 cm3).[12] The engine has an all aluminum head and block in order to keep weight and warm-up times low[13]. Direct injection and a turbocharger are used to provide output comparable to a 6-cylinder naturally aspirated engine, and the FA24 uses "regular" (87 AKI) fuel.[14] At the 2019 Chicago Auto Show, Subaru unveiled the 2020 model year Subaru Legacy sedan, available starting in fall 2019 and featuring the FA24 as the uplevel engine option.[15] The 2020 model year Subaru Outback also featured the FA24 as the uplevel option.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_FA_engine



Why wouldn’t they use an existing engine they already have if they decide it is fit for purpose and economical enough? It would cost more to develop an entirely new engine just for the twins. That is highly unlikely.



My bad, yes the FA24 is a replacement for Subaru’s flat 6 in cars like the Legacy.

Unless it's different where you live, or changed recently, the regular imprezza has an FB20, which is very different from the FA20. The only thing they really have in common is the layout and displacement by my understanding. I don't think many parts are swappable.

In order of most noticable... The FA20DIT in the WRX has completely different heads (including cams, injection, etc) and pistons from the FA20D4S in the twins. They have different compression ratios (FI vs NA). I think they also have some oiling differences but I am not sure. Not even going into ancillaries and stuff bolted to them.

It's surprisingly difficult to find a dyno of the FA24 I can link. I got stuff to do so I'm not spending too much time on that, but you should start looking at different types of Dyno plots and see if you can pick out which ones go into sports cars. The point being it's not just some software involved in setting up a FA24. Plus there's all the testing and certification that takes up a crap ton of money.

The Ascent weighs more than certain variants of the F150 and tows up to what 5000lbs or something?. Truck. Prove me wrong.

Edit:. Forgot to mention the FA20 D4S came first (well, after FB), followed by the DIT.

[Broseph]

Here’s some quick info on what the FA24DIT is capable of without any special treatment from Subaru or STI.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2907007

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by Broseph

Here’s some quick info on what the FA24DIT is capable of without any special treatment from Subaru or STI.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2907007

Thanks for the great read. I too am shocked on how few fa24 engines I was able to find when looking.

[J1Avs]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Unless it's different where you live, or changed recently, the regular imprezza has an FB20, which is very different from the FA20. The only thing they really have in common is the layout and displacement by my understanding. I don't think many parts are swappable.

In order of most noticable... The FA20DIT in the WRX has completely different heads (including cams, injection, etc) and pistons from the FA20D4S in the twins. They have different compression ratios (FI vs NA). I think they also have some oiling differences but I am not sure. Not even going into ancillaries and stuff bolted to them.

It's surprisingly difficult to find a dyno of the FA24 I can link. I got stuff to do so I'm not spending too much time on that, but you should start looking at different types of Dyno plots and see if you can pick out which ones go into sports cars. The point being it's not just some software involved in setting up a FA24. Plus there's all the testing and certification that takes up a crap ton of money.

The Ascent weighs more than certain variants of the F150 and tows up to what 5000lbs or something?. Truck. Prove me wrong.

Edit:. Forgot to mention the FA20 D4S came first (well, after FB), followed by the DIT.

Exactly!! The FA20 in the BRZ/86 is actually far more modified than expected, given its low production numbers. I truly can't see Subaru not plugging a new mass market or existing mass market engine into the twin.

If they do go ahead and make another bespoke engine -- that would be awesome! But the economics of it, truly aren't there -- especially at a time when they are also
releasing an update WRX and STI.

But as always...pure speculation based on market trends. To argue my own point -- Toyota has been doing some funky stuff. The GR Yaris is insane and pretty much breaks all rules, so who the heck really know anything anymore!

[Jimbo II]

If its 2.4L NA 250hp, 1250kg from factory count me in.

[C4RBON]

Those interested in the development of the FA20 for the twins should read this white paper. It describes the changes to the FB20 that were necessary for the program.

"Development of Horizontally Opposed 2.0-liter Natural Aspiration Gasoline Engine for Subaru BRZ" by Nobuo Kyotoku, Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd., Japan

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nz0...ew?usp=sharing

[StaticShot]

I just want to weigh in real quick on the whole "truck engine in a car" discussion.

It could just as easily be seen as "a car engine in a truck". Look at what Chevrolet does with the LS Small Block. Some people might be surprised to learn that the Corvette doesn't use a unique engine, but by using the same engine block that they use in their trucks and SUVs they're able to keep production costs down on the Corvette. Obviously there is a shit ton of differences between the engine and tune on the Silverado compared to the c7, but the bones are the same.

The whole reason the twins exist is Toyota didn't have the budget or target market size to justify designing, engineering, and producing a performance engine specifically for use in a sport coupe.

It's perfectly reasonable to see why they would put the FA24 in the next gen 86. This will allow them to keep costs down, and get a power increase without going FI. As much as I hope they'll offer a turbo version from the factory, I highly doubt it now due to the release of the 4-cylinder Supra hitting the US market. I just feel there's too much overlap there, having two four-cylinder turbos to choose from in the same lineup both with very similar target demographics.

Someone should really start a poll so we can all place our bets.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by HaXx

the 86 is subaru's creation, funded by toyota, apparently, so the next gen is prob a creation of subie too. in which case none of the above would happen, but you get the point. if you want a sports car with a bigger engine, and oe turbo, that car already exists, and youre not going to get it for $30k. so if you want $30k car, 2.0L boosted, that car exists too! boost the one in your driveway!

The 86 is Toyotas creation. They brought the idea of a 2 door RWD coupe, around the same time Toyota flew a bunch of AE86 guys over to talk about a new 86 type car. Subaru was initially hesitant about the idea, but came on board after being surprised how their frankenmule car performed. From there development was a near 50/50 split. Assembly was handled by Subaru for obvious logistical reasons, as well as because their lines weren't near capacity.