SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[markw]

Originally Posted by ButteR

Did you happen to measure your camber before installing the springs? I'm assuming the car is stock other than the TRD springs and OEM crash bolts?

Also, you said "Installed TRD springs today with stock Sachs FRS struts" Did you install TRD springs AND new struts? Or were the Sach FRS Struts already on the car?

What are Sach FRS Struts btw? are they the OEM struts that come with the car or are they OEM replacements?

You're the first to report these results, so it's important that things don't get lost in translation

Sachs is a German brand and oem supplier for VW. I'm not sure anyone has measured camber with stock struts and springs except 1 guy and he said he got 1.9.

Mark

[ChrisV]

My OEM FR-S struts were Showa.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[Shark_Bait88]

Ah! Now this is a very interesting twist I hadn't thought of. Did Toyota/Scion/Subaru change the dimensions of the stock struts at all when they switched from Showa to Sachs? Also, did the Konis change accordingly?

If that's the case then that could mean that Konis built for the '15+ cars could have different dimensions than the ones for '13 & '14 MY, which might allow for greater camber gain.

I'd be very curious to see dimensions between the Showa and Sachs OEM struts.

Granted their is a slight flaw in this theory, because @ChrisV's car is a '14. However, if he somehow ended up with '15 dimension Konis it could still be valid.

However this is really all just major speculation on my part, a theory with no facts to back it.

There's gotta be someone I can email at my work who could give me the dimensions on the Sachs struts... haha

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Ah! Now this is a very interesting twist I hadn't thought of. Did Toyota/Scion/Subaru change the dimensions of the stock struts at all when they switched from Showa to Sachs? Also, did the Konis change accordingly?

If that's the case then that could mean that Konis built for the '15+ cars could have different dimensions than the ones for '13 & '14 MY, which might allow for greater camber gain.

I'd be very curious to see dimensions between the Showa and Sachs OEM struts.

Granted their is a slight flaw in this theory, because @ChrisV's car is a '14. However, if he somehow ended up with '15 dimension Konis it could still be valid.

However this is really all just major speculation on my part, a theory with no facts to back it.

There's gotta be someone I can email at my work who could give me the dimensions on the Sachs struts... haha

I believe @ksconekiller has a '14 BRZ, and he's the one with the detailed measurements showing the Koni is exactly the same as OEM.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I believe @ksconekiller has a '14 BRZ, and he's the one with the detailed measurements showing the Koni is exactly the same as OEM.

Well for my theory to be correct it's operating under a couple assumptions. The first is that the Sachs struts, which were OE starting in '15, are different than the Showa struts, OE in '13 and '14, in a way that would allow increased camber with the OEM crash bolts. The 2nd is that Koni would have changed their struts accordingly to match any differences between the Showa and Sachs struts. If these two assumptions are correct it would follow that OE Sachs struts and the corresponding Konis, changed to be the same OE spec, would both allow for more camber gain.

This could explain why some people with seemingly the same parts could have different results dependent upon their vehicle's MY and when they bought their Konis.

I know I'm making huge assumptions here, with no evidence to back them up, but it's a theory that makes sense in thought. I'd be very curious to see someone do comparison measurements between '13/'14 and '15 MY OE struts and a comparison of Konis purchased before and after the introduction of the Sachs struts as OE.

(I think I'm really reaching here, but I'm having fun doing it. haha)

[veloscaraptor]

Hi all. Super noob question, sorry in advance.

I just got my fr-s, and am planning a return to autocross (been away for ~4 years) in CS. I'm currently looking at wheels; does it make sense to grab a small (5mm) spacer for a +50 offset wheel? Or should I just run them as is? Or should I just run stock wheels until i can find rpf1s (or similar) in stock?

Thanks!

[solort]

Originally Posted by ButteR

Did you happen to measure your camber before installing the springs? I'm assuming the car is stock other than the TRD springs and OEM crash bolts?

Also, you said "Installed TRD springs today with stock Sachs FRS struts" Did you install TRD springs AND new struts? Or were the Sach FRS Struts already on the car?

What are Sach FRS Struts btw? are they the OEM struts that come with the car or are they OEM replacements?

You're the first to report these results, so it's important that things don't get lost in translation

I was confused. They are Showa. I read Sachs somewhere but I think that is for newer FRS

[SeanRTR]

Originally Posted by veloscaraptor

Hi all. Super noob question, sorry in advance.

I just got my fr-s, and am planning a return to autocross (been away for ~4 years) in CS. I'm currently looking at wheels; does it make sense to grab a small (5mm) spacer for a +50 offset wheel? Or should I just run them as is? Or should I just run stock wheels until i can find rpf1s (or similar) in stock?

Thanks!

Even 5mm, people will tell you not to run extended wheel studs when running spacers. I'm local to you, if you want to buy a set of OEM wheels, I'll sell you mine for 325, no spacers needed.

[solort]

Originally Posted by ButteR

Did you happen to measure your camber before installing the springs? I'm assuming the car is stock other than the TRD springs and OEM crash bolts?

Also, you said "Installed TRD springs today with stock Sachs FRS struts" Did you install TRD springs AND new struts? Or were the Sach FRS Struts already on the car?

What are Sach FRS Struts btw? are they the OEM struts that come with the car or are they OEM replacements?

You're the first to report these results, so it's important that things don't get lost in translation

Yes. I measured camber on both sides before and after, as well as spring drop from the wheel center to the fender.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Well for my theory to be correct it's operating under a couple assumptions. The first is that the Sachs struts, which were OE starting in '15, are different than the Showa struts, OE in '13 and '14, in a way that would allow increased camber with the OEM crash bolts. The 2nd is that Koni would have changed their struts accordingly to match any differences between the Showa and Sachs struts. If these two assumptions are correct it would follow that OE Sachs struts and the corresponding Konis, changed to be the same OE spec, would both allow for more camber gain.

This could explain why some people with seemingly the same parts could have different results dependent upon their vehicle's MY and when they bought their Konis.

I know I'm making huge assumptions here, with no evidence to back them up, but it's a theory that makes sense in thought. I'd be very curious to see someone do comparison measurements between '13/'14 and '15 MY OE struts and a comparison of Konis purchased before and after the introduction of the Sachs struts as OE.

(I think I'm really reaching here, but I'm having fun doing it. haha)

How about asking Koni which strut they measured against? They've been very open in stating they intended to make an exact OEM replacement. They may not know that the strut changed.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by veloscaraptor

Hi all. Super noob question, sorry in advance.

I just got my fr-s, and am planning a return to autocross (been away for ~4 years) in CS. I'm currently looking at wheels; does it make sense to grab a small (5mm) spacer for a +50 offset wheel? Or should I just run them as is? Or should I just run stock wheels until i can find rpf1s (or similar) in stock?

Thanks!

What Sean said - don't run a spacer on stock studs.

I run an 8mm spacer on my +50 wheels but I have the ARP studs.

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by renfield90

How about asking Koni which strut they measured against? They've been very open in stating they intended to make an exact OEM replacement. They may not know that the strut changed.

My conversation with Lee Grimes included this:

Originally Posted by Lee Grimes, Automotive Product Manager for Koni NA

They were intended to be an exact match to the OE units and are sold all around the world. I have no information that anything is different from the OE units and this is the first time someone has brought a question to me. Can you tell me what the actual alleged difference is?

By definition and our intention just like every other damper that we make, this should be legal for the narrow microcosm of Street classing. I bought the first sets of OE samples that we could get in North America and sent them to Europe at which point Engineering drawings were created for the complete dampers and the individual stamping components like spring perches, mounting brackets, sway bar, ABS & brake line brackets, etc. Tooling to manufacture these parts was made, the stampings were made and then the dampers were made. This process took over a year to unfold and involved a number of companies across at least three countries because it is not possible to buy the exact original stampings from the OE manufacturer (which would have been so much easier and faster).

Is it possible that some specification or tolerance of some part could have drifted slightly across the entire process with how many people and companies were involved? Yes, I guess so but I don't recall hearing of that before on other applications nor on this one. I need to know what is being questioned and then our Engineering team and I can look deeper into it.

Like I said, I'll bring an original with me in case someone decides to protest, but I'm running them. KSConeKiller posted pics and measurements, I confirmed the measurements, and Lee Grimes told me the above. Until someone can prove that they're different, I'm satisfied that my car is fully legal.

[7thgear]

anyone run slight toe-out in the rear?

[veloscaraptor]

Originally Posted by SeanRTR

Even 5mm, people will tell you not to run extended wheel studs when running spacers. I'm local to you, if you want to buy a set of OEM wheels, I'll sell you mine for 325, no spacers needed.

Originally Posted by renfield90

What Sean said - don't run a spacer on stock studs.

I run an 8mm spacer on my +50 wheels but I have the ARP studs.

thanks guys. Right now I'll just run the +50 without spacers so I don't have to mess with studs (until later).

Sean, since you're local, do you know of a place to get a good alignment done? I'm relatively new to Michigan.