follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > 1st Gens: Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 / Subaru BRZ > BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics

BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-26-2018, 09:54 AM   #211
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomm.brz View Post
i would trade my brz for a 4c instantly lol.
but well.. i m poor
and anyway, @nikitopo i dont really care what a guy who changed car think, it s his own business, i answered to you about the chassis. there is a compromise and it is the money
for how good our chassis (i love it personally) it s still a 30k € car, there will always be a margin to improve it
I will amend the last statement a bit. There will always be a margin to change it. Whether those changes are an improvement or not are based solely upon the goals, use and preferences of the owner. No manufacturer will ever build a car that is perfect for everybody.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:58 AM   #212
nikitopo
Senior Member
 
nikitopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: '15 BRZ RA
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,787
Thanks: 2,416
Thanked 1,944 Times in 1,261 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
And for every one of those there is at least one that hated the platform and would never go back no matter what.


Subjective opinions are subjective.
Of course, it depends always the people. There are many that will never understand the current platform or they will never admit their "mistake" after leaving and try something else.
nikitopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:02 AM   #213
Yoshoobaroo
TRACKBREAD
 
Yoshoobaroo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Drives: 2013 BRZ
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,929
Thanks: 2,660
Thanked 4,024 Times in 1,895 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Next Gen BRZ/86!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvoll View Post
Ignorance is making facts up. You and your cohorts don't have any references FROM SUBARU for your assumptions on THEIR definition of a platform.
Nobody said with any certainty they will. All we said is that it is definitely possible, and taking into consideration what other manufacturers have done, it could be very beneficial to the car. Remember that this car is supposed to be cheap, and a dedicated platform is not.

The only 'reference from Subaru' you have is some marketing approved drivel about the new global platform and how it incorporates the super safe and absolutely necessary symmetrical super duper AWD. Not exactly what their engineers are trading right now. I GUARANTEE that one of the top level trades discussed at Subaru/Toyota was wether or not to use the global platform.

Quote:
Assuming it will be infinitely scalable, is again, fake news.
Nobody said anything about infinity scalability

Quote:
Assuming that Toyota will bend to the will of Subaru for the Twins is fake news. Assuming the designer of the twins from Toyota will limit his design to the Subaru Platform, is totally fake news.
Your assumption dismisses the fact that Toyota let Subaru design the chassis of the current car while they were busy drawing the body and cutting the Corolla head in half. The chief engineer of the project is a Toyota engineer, but the full team was made up of both companies. Subaru did the lionshare of mechanical design because the platform came from them and thus they have legacy knowledge about it. Toyota did some tweaking with springs afterwards, but all suspension components are almost carbon copies of the WRX parts.

Quote:
The problem is that I do understand your concepts and in a theoretical world, they make sense. Taking the "I have superior knowledge to you" approach in your arguments, and dismissing factual inconsistencies is the hallmark of fake news. You can't take a theory and try to rationalize the surrounding facts to fit the theory. This is the antithesis of basic scientific method. Logical argumentation should be devoid of emotional bias. Personally, I'd like to support your theories because that would mean Subaru will continue to support the BRZ over time. But I cannot try to rationalize facts that don't fit that theory with, again, fake news.
Please quote me wherever I said anything objectively false.

Quote:
Furthermore, logic dictates that a new sports car design would probably be better without the limitations of an AWD platform with cars that are not designed for sports car handling and proportions.
Sure, but it would dramatically increase cost, and once again, the current car is already based on the WRX chassis (the previous global platform, if you will) and is still one of the best handling cars on the market.

Quote:
Given the facts we know (and not assumptions that have no Subaru delineated factual basis), there is absolutely no reason to believe that the global platform will be used for the new 2021 BRZ. If you don't understand the difference between deduction based upon delineated facts versus theory that requires the rationalization of facts, I just can't help you....
Assumptions don't need a Subaru sactioned basis to be applicable. The entire industry shifted to heavy platform sharing because it works. I know a thing or two about making assumptions from an engineering perspective, I get paid for it every day. Without assumptions a design cannot move forward. You cannot define all your parameters from the start because design choices affect each other and one change trickles down to the most seemingly unrelated parts or systems. This is exactly one of the problems a global platform helps with, because the platform engineers already solved a lot of problems before your design even started. Assumptions are necessary. They need to be carefully weighted and kept in check by exploring real world testing or similar design choices that were made in the past. Hence why I cited the different platforms from other manufacturers that have done so very successfully in the past. Real world analogs show us that it can be done, and the fact that almost all other manufacturers have moved to a single platforms for VERY different cars tells us that the first savings make it necessary to do so in order to stay competitive. Nobody will buy a 2nd gen if it costs the same as the Supra, they won't care that 'it has its own platform'. The Supra which will be competitively priced as well because it was built on BMW's scalable architecture.

There is no reason to believe that the SGP cannot be used for the next gen BRZ/86. There is no guarantee either way, but the precedent of the current car being built on the WRX platform all but guarantees one of two things:
The current chassis will be adapted for the next gen, and a limited amount of subsystems from the SGP get incorporated in it (power steering, electronics, interior parts, etc.), or the car gets built on the SGP. There is no way in hell the BRZ gets its own platform.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yoshoobaroo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Yoshoobaroo For This Useful Post:
spikyone (04-27-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 10:05 AM   #214
sato
Senior Member
 
sato's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Drives: Dodge Patitas
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 973
Thanks: 1,823
Thanked 371 Times in 265 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricepuddin View Post
Plot twist, the BRZ and 86 will be turned into a hybrid CUV wit a CVT

Sent from my Samsung Chromebook Pro using Tapatalk
Don't joke about that shit... it could happen. Then again, it didn't happen to Toyota:

https://www.mitsubishicars.com/eclipse-cross/2018

sato is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sato For This Useful Post:
Ricepuddin (04-26-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 10:26 AM   #215
Yoshoobaroo
TRACKBREAD
 
Yoshoobaroo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Drives: 2013 BRZ
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,929
Thanks: 2,660
Thanked 4,024 Times in 1,895 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricepuddin View Post
Plot twist, the BRZ and 86 will be turned into a hybrid CUV wit a CVT

Sent from my Samsung Chromebook Pro using Tapatalk


Dude, don't even. My heart..

I'm already broken up about the Eclipse and the Lancer being prostituted as CUVs, and they had already been diluted in the last 15 years (Evo notwithstanding). For the pure BRZ to suffer that fate would be ubelievably cruel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yoshoobaroo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Yoshoobaroo For This Useful Post:
Ricepuddin (04-26-2018), Tcoat (04-26-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 10:39 AM   #216
funwheeldrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Drives: BANNED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH
Location: MODS ARE ON A POWER TRIP
Posts: 3,447
Thanks: 7,830
Thanked 3,022 Times in 1,409 Posts
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
There was a review lately of an ex-gt86 owner who has now a 4c. He really misses his old car and he realised that the GT86 is one of the best cars on the market. Especially as a track project car!

More details here:
http://www.gt86ownersclub.co.uk/foru...8.html?KW=#top
Everyone who buys an Alfa 4c has buyer's remorse though. There is a reason why they are already selling for 20k less than new.
funwheeldrive is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to funwheeldrive For This Useful Post:
bkharmony (04-26-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 11:07 AM   #217
nikitopo
Senior Member
 
nikitopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: '15 BRZ RA
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,787
Thanks: 2,416
Thanked 1,944 Times in 1,261 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomm.brz View Post
i would trade my brz for a 4c instantly lol.
but well.. i m poor
and anyway, @nikitopo i dont really care what a guy who changed car think, it s his own business, i answered to you about the chassis. there is a compromise and it is the money
for how good our chassis (i love it personally) it s still a 30k € car, there will always be a margin to improve it
Well, I would buy a 4c if I wanted a show off car :b


You should read some old posts here. The cost of the car was kept low, but not on areas that could not be changed easily. Too bad some people don't understand what they have.


You can start from here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...91&postcount=1
nikitopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 11:08 AM   #218
Jordanwolf
Rice King
 
Jordanwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Drives: '19 FWD master race CTR
Location: The land of the North
Posts: 2,887
Thanks: 1,079
Thanked 2,001 Times in 1,203 Posts
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
Nobody said with any certainty they will. All we said is that it is definitely possible, and taking into consideration what other manufacturers have done, it could be very beneficial to the car. Remember that this car is supposed to be cheap, and a dedicated platform is not.

The only 'reference from Subaru' you have is some marketing approved drivel about the new global platform and how it incorporates the super safe and absolutely necessary symmetrical super duper AWD. Not exactly what their engineers are trading right now. I GUARANTEE that one of the top level trades discussed at Subaru/Toyota was wether or not to use the global platform.


Nobody said anything about infinity scalability


Your assumption dismisses the fact that Toyota let Subaru design the chassis of the current car while they were busy drawing the body and cutting the Corolla head in half. The chief engineer of the project is a Toyota engineer, but the full team was made up of both companies. Subaru did the lionshare of mechanical design because the platform came from them and thus they have legacy knowledge about it. Toyota did some tweaking with springs afterwards, but all suspension components are almost carbon copies of the WRX parts.


Please quote me wherever I said anything objectively false.


Sure, but it would dramatically increase cost, and once again, the current car is already based on the WRX chassis (the previous global platform, if you will) and is still one of the best handling cars on the market.



Assumptions don't need a Subaru sactioned basis to be applicable. The entire industry shifted to heavy platform sharing because it works. I know a thing or two about making assumptions from an engineering perspective, I get paid for it every day. Without assumptions a design cannot move forward. You cannot define all your parameters from the start because design choices affect each other and one change trickles down to the most seemingly unrelated parts or systems. This is exactly one of the problems a global platform helps with, because the platform engineers already solved a lot of problems before your design even started. Assumptions are necessary. They need to be carefully weighted and kept in check by exploring real world testing or similar design choices that were made in the past. Hence why I cited the different platforms from other manufacturers that have done so very successfully in the past. Real world analogs show us that it can be done, and the fact that almost all other manufacturers have moved to a single platforms for VERY different cars tells us that the first savings make it necessary to do so in order to stay competitive. Nobody will buy a 2nd gen if it costs the same as the Supra, they won't care that 'it has its own platform'. The Supra which will be competitively priced as well because it was built on BMW's scalable architecture.

There is no reason to believe that the SGP cannot be used for the next gen BRZ/86. There is no guarantee either way, but the precedent of the current car being built on the WRX platform all but guarantees one of two things:
The current chassis will be adapted for the next gen, and a limited amount of subsystems from the SGP get incorporated in it (power steering, electronics, interior parts, etc.), or the car gets built on the SGP. There is no way in hell the BRZ gets its own platform.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I must objectively disagree with everything you said on a theoretically fact-jective basis, due to the fact that you use an iphone and call yourself a car enthusiast.

Good day Sur.
__________________
Glorious Honda.
Know my 5x120 GREATNESS PEASANTS.
Jordanwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 11:09 AM   #219
extrashaky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: 2014 BRZ Limited
Location: USA
Posts: 4,045
Thanks: 1,100
Thanked 5,618 Times in 2,266 Posts
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
Everyone who buys an Alfa 4c has buyer's remorse though.
I'm remorseful about how ugly it is without even having bought one.

I really wanted to like that car, but I wouldn't be able to stand the walk toward it each morning. It's easily the ugliest car built in the last 40 years. It's even uglier than the Aztec.
extrashaky is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to extrashaky For This Useful Post:
Tcoat (04-26-2018), Yoshoobaroo (04-26-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 11:19 AM   #220
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
The current chassis will be adapted for the next gen, and a limited amount of subsystems from the SGP get incorporated in it (power steering, electronics, interior parts, etc.), or the car gets built on the SGP. There is no way in hell the BRZ gets its own platform.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Or vice versa. The power steering in the new Impreza (built on the SGP) is lifted straight out of the BRZ. They make a big deal about that in the marketing materials. No doubt there were other design cues and possibly even BRZ specific parts used in the new platform. They were working on developing the SGP at the same time as designing the BRZ platform so there would be little doubt that some of the engineering passed between the two and the ability to use BRZ tech as parts bin components was a consideration.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Yoshoobaroo (04-26-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 11:22 AM   #221
bkharmony
Senior Member
 
bkharmony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Drives: 2017 86GT
Location: North Texas
Posts: 324
Thanks: 562
Thanked 335 Times in 166 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I can no longer keep track of who I think is the biggest idiot in this thread.
bkharmony is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to bkharmony For This Useful Post:
Clutch (04-26-2018), NoHaveMSG (04-26-2018), Tcoat (04-26-2018), weederr33 (04-26-2018), Yoshoobaroo (04-26-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 11:24 AM   #222
funwheeldrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Drives: BANNED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH
Location: MODS ARE ON A POWER TRIP
Posts: 3,447
Thanks: 7,830
Thanked 3,022 Times in 1,409 Posts
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrashaky View Post
I'm remorseful about how ugly it is without even having bought one.

I really wanted to like that car, but I wouldn't be able to stand the walk toward it each morning. It's easily the ugliest car built in the last 40 years. It's even uglier than the Aztec.
I think it's beautiful, especially in person. I just can't understand why the car doesn't have power steering, but a manual transmission isn't even an option. Also, the fact that the hood doesn't open makes me really irritated for some reason.
funwheeldrive is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to funwheeldrive For This Useful Post:
bkharmony (04-26-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 11:26 AM   #223
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
Dude, don't even. My heart..

I'm already broken up about the Eclipse and the Lancer being prostituted as CUVs, and they had already been diluted in the last 15 years (Evo notwithstanding). For the pure BRZ to suffer that fate would be ubelievably cruel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As a long term DSM/Mitsubishi fanboi I saw a headline that read "Mitsubishi to Release New Eclipse" With hands shaking in anticipation I rapidly clicked on the link with full expectations of seeing a new and glorious sight. The site opened, a picture popped up and there it was. A beautiful picture of a mildly upgraded RVR (Outlander Sport to the US) After I threw up a little in my mouth and searched franticly for the real picture of the new Eclipse I just went to bed and cried myself to sleep.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Yoshoobaroo (04-26-2018)
Old 04-26-2018, 11:27 AM   #224
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkharmony View Post
I can no longer keep track of who I think is the biggest idiot in this thread.
Me! Pick me!


__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
bkharmony (04-26-2018)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.