SCOOP: Subaru didn't want D4S (and neither do I)

[Matador]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Not that I know of...The FB20 might....but the FA20 sounds like it doesn't have AVCS.




I dunno if they are going to go with VVTI or Valvematic or AVCS...I kinda have the feeling that if at all..it will have Subaru Variable Valve Tech in the future. Rather VVTi even if the heads have been work on by Yamaha.

Personally id like to see a strong Valvematic system or Dual AVLS

I'll bet that as much as the OP would like to imply otherwise, Toyota must have been hesitant to share it's next gen DI technology. As such, pretty sure they won't share valvematic (feel free to prove me wrong ToyMoCo). If anything maybe we'll see AVCS or VVTI

[Kids Heart]

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...86fr-sbrz.aspx

FR-S, GT86, 86, BRZ exhaust manifold UPDATE: Tip of the hat to MotoIQ Nerd @Jamal, who pointed us to Hellafunctional, who stole this image from someone over at FT86Club who snapped this shot in the Subaru booth at the Tokyo Motor Show a few days ago . Looks like the engine uses a proper 4-2-1 header, which means it will sound like a proper 4-cylinder, not like a WRX. Love that fact or hate it (I'm on the fence) this manifold is surely a large part of why this engine is capable of 100 hp per liter.


Subaru BRZ Turbo, toyota 86 turbo, scion fr-s turbo MORE UPDATES: Jay Kavanagh over at InsideLine.com posted these pictures of the Subaru 1.6 turbo sitting right next to the BRZ/86/FT-S engine. Though there are no claims this will go in the 86, it doens't take much imagination to see it being done, either by them or by us. This turbo packaging is very friendly for the 86's FR layout, since there will be tons of room in front for a bigger turbo. This packaging makes a twin-scroll a no-brainer, since you could essentially have the same manifold as the non-turbo engine, but with a turbo flange right after the 4-2 collectors. It would also be much easier to simply put the intercooler in front, where it belongs, and connect to the already forward-facing throttle body.

It's not clear how Subaru is dealing with oil drainage, since the turbo's oil drain is down below the oil line in the pan, but the fact that Subaru already worked it out for us makes it much easier when we turbocharge one of these ourselves.

The dual direct/port injection system now makes perfect sense. It's easier for tuners to leave the direct injectors alone and add bigger port injectors for boosted fueling.

Thread over.

[Ryephile]

Except that when you start hosing in port injected fueling, your chemical quench reduces and disturbs combustion wavefront/pressure uniformity. The result is you cannot run as much boost versus DI. This is why, in addition to making the engine cheaper, as shown in the picture above, the DIT-1.6 has DI-only.

It's a bit disappointing to read MotoIQ spewing bad tuning practices. A good tuner will continue to use the direct injectors at WOT assuming they can delivery the fuel mass.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by EJ20

yamaha (which is owned by Toyota)

5% constitutes ownership, really?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by old greg

5% constitutes ownership, really?

On the internets a rumor constitutes ownership, duh.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by old greg

5% constitutes ownership, really?

It does not, but Toyota and Yamaha's relationship goes a lot deeper and further back than just by what percentage of shares they own. You will find that Yamaha is far more interwound into Toyota than Fuji-Heavy (Subaru) for instance, of Who Toyota is the largest shareholder at 16.x% and there I go off topic so I'll just shut up now.

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Except that when you start hosing in port injected fueling, your chemical quench reduces and disturbs combustion wavefront/pressure uniformity. The result is you cannot run as much boost versus DI. This is why, in addition to making the engine cheaper, as shown in the picture above, the DIT-1.6 has DI-only.

It's a bit disappointing to read MotoIQ spewing bad tuning practices. A good tuner will continue to use the direct injectors at WOT assuming they can delivery the fuel mass.

I'm not sure if they were prescribing shutting down the DI or just using the port injectors to augment the fueling.....

[cyde01]

a couple things:

according to the autoblog 1st drive review of the brz, the fa20 DOES have AVCS. that's the only source i've seen mention it so i have no idea how accurate that statement is.

it's true that subaru initially didn't want d-4s, but it's also true that initially subaru wasn't aiming for 100 hp/liter or 200hp. they were literally planning to do nothing but stick the fb20 in there as is. it was chief engineer tada-san's insistence on a 100hp/liter engine with good gas mileage which led to the development of a brand new engine with d-4s and 86x86 square bore/stroke. initially subaru had their doubts whether d-4s really had such potential while toyota had doubts that subaru would be able to build a d-4s compatible block that would meet the specifications, but they got 200hp on their first try, which removed any doubts on both sides.

this is all info from the japanese press brochure that was passed out at the debut.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2565

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by cyde01

a couple things:

according to the autoblog 1st drive review of the brz, the fa20 DOES have AVCS. that's the only source i've seen mention it so i have no idea how accurate that statement is.

This is great news if it is true. Hopefully we will get more confirmation in the future (i.e. official).

Originally Posted by cyde01

it's true that subaru initially didn't want d-4s, but it's also true that initially subaru wasn't aiming for 100 hp/liter or 200hp. they were literally planning to do nothing but stick the fb20 in there as is. it was chief engineer tada-san's insistence on a 100hp/liter engine with good gas mileage which led to the development of a brand new engine with d-4s and 86x86 square bore/stroke. initially subaru had their doubts whether d-4s really had such potential while toyota had doubts that subaru would be able to build a d-4s compatible block that would meet the specifications, but they got 200hp on their first try, which removed any doubts and both sides.

this is all info from the japanese press brochure that was passed out at the debut.

I am happy that Subaru and Toyota were able to work out their differences and create this car. I'm sure it was difficult for the two teams to come together and create this, especially with their different ideas of what the car should be. But it sounds like they did a great job and pulled it off. Will just have to wait until we can test drive it for ourselves.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by cyde01

a couple things:

according to the autoblog 1st drive review of the brz, the fa20 DOES have AVCS. that's the only source i've seen mention it so i have no idea how accurate that statement is.

it's true that subaru initially didn't want d-4s, but it's also true that initially subaru wasn't aiming for 100 hp/liter or 200hp. they were literally planning to do nothing but stick the fb20 in there as is. it was chief engineer tada-san's insistence on a 100hp/liter engine with good gas mileage which led to the development of a brand new engine with d-4s and 86x86 square bore/stroke. initially subaru had their doubts whether d-4s really had such potential while toyota had doubts that subaru would be able to build a d-4s compatible block that would meet the specifications, but they got 200hp on their first try, which removed any doubts on both sides.

this is all info from the japanese press brochure that was passed out at the debut.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2565

:happy0180:
Great stuff.

[NorCalRider]

All these people still wondering if the ecu is tunable need not worry. There are pics of Crawford Performance at the Scion event logging into the frs ecu and dl'ing info. Crawford talks some about it on there FB page.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by old greg

5% constitutes ownership, really?

Not in the Western sense, no. But their history together goes back like 40 years. And Japanese business relationships are different.

Yamaha is part of the Toyota family. As is Subaru, Denso, Aisin, etc...

[Homemade WRX]

The MotoIQ site was simply stating an easy means to getting more fueling via port injection but leaving what you can with GDI.
I already have pieces in play for getting larger injectors, working with injector contact at the OEM level and aftermarket level as well as being on beta testing lists for two different EM companies...I'm really hoping my SOA contacts can get me permission to plug up and raid the ROM however.

Oh and the motor is clearing dual AVCS as well, for those wondering about it.

-Micah

P.S. As for Subaru testing GDI, I have some lovely W20 (EJ20 with dual AVCS) heads that are tapped fro GDI. I had a customer come across the prototype heads and sent them to me. So I suspect they started the project on a turbo EJ series engine before the FA or possibly before this project was truly focused.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

The MotoIQ site was simply stating an easy means to getting more fueling via port injection but leaving what you can with GDI.
I already have pieces in play for getting larger injectors, working with injector contact at the OEM level and aftermarket level as well as being on beta testing lists for two different EM companies...I'm really hoping my SOA contacts can get me permission to plug up and raid the ROM however.

Oh and the motor is clearing dual AVCS as well, for those wondering about it.

-Micah

P.S. As for Subaru testing GDI, I have some lovely W20 (EJ20 with dual AVCS) heads that are tapped fro GDI. I had a customer come across the prototype heads and sent them to me. So I suspect they started the project on a turbo EJ series engine before the FA or possibly before this project was truly focused.

I'd start with doing some D4-S research rather than pricing bigger port injectors. Current 2GRFSE's D4-S runs on DI alone at full throttle. And it has varied injector use % at different load/rpm ranges. It's not 50/50 port/DI all the time.

If it's as simple as it just has 2 maps (DI and port) then being able to activate the port injectors at full throttle may be all that is needed for enrichment. Pending pump capacity, of course.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

The MotoIQ site was simply stating an easy means to getting more fueling via port injection but leaving what you can with GDI.

As long as you understand that adding port fueling will likely lower chemical quench and reduce combustion uniformity. Otherwise, it's foolish advice.