follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-07-2011, 11:28 AM   #57
Matador
hashiryu
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Drives: Mk4 Supra
Location: Probably mucking around in an engine bay
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 18
Thanked 37 Times in 20 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post
Not that I know of...The FB20 might....but the FA20 sounds like it doesn't have AVCS.




I dunno if they are going to go with VVTI or Valvematic or AVCS...I kinda have the feeling that if at all..it will have Subaru Variable Valve Tech in the future. Rather VVTi even if the heads have been work on by Yamaha.

Personally id like to see a strong Valvematic system or Dual AVLS

I'll bet that as much as the OP would like to imply otherwise, Toyota must have been hesitant to share it's next gen DI technology. As such, pretty sure they won't share valvematic (feel free to prove me wrong ToyMoCo). If anything maybe we'll see AVCS or VVTI
__________________
Welcome to FT86club.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimman View Post
The 'FT' stands for 'forgot topic'.
Matador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 11:57 AM   #58
Kids Heart
Senior Member
 
Kids Heart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Drives: 2013 BRZ Limited SWP
Location: Lawrenceville GA
Posts: 579
Thanks: 63
Thanked 117 Times in 66 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...86fr-sbrz.aspx
Quote:

FR-S, GT86, 86, BRZ exhaust manifold UPDATE: Tip of the hat to MotoIQ Nerd @Jamal, who pointed us to Hellafunctional, who stole this image from someone over at FT86Club who snapped this shot in the Subaru booth at the Tokyo Motor Show a few days ago . Looks like the engine uses a proper 4-2-1 header, which means it will sound like a proper 4-cylinder, not like a WRX. Love that fact or hate it (I'm on the fence) this manifold is surely a large part of why this engine is capable of 100 hp per liter.


Subaru BRZ Turbo, toyota 86 turbo, scion fr-s turbo MORE UPDATES: Jay Kavanagh over at InsideLine.com posted these pictures of the Subaru 1.6 turbo sitting right next to the BRZ/86/FT-S engine. Though there are no claims this will go in the 86, it doens't take much imagination to see it being done, either by them or by us. This turbo packaging is very friendly for the 86's FR layout, since there will be tons of room in front for a bigger turbo. This packaging makes a twin-scroll a no-brainer, since you could essentially have the same manifold as the non-turbo engine, but with a turbo flange right after the 4-2 collectors. It would also be much easier to simply put the intercooler in front, where it belongs, and connect to the already forward-facing throttle body.

It's not clear how Subaru is dealing with oil drainage, since the turbo's oil drain is down below the oil line in the pan, but the fact that Subaru already worked it out for us makes it much easier when we turbocharge one of these ourselves.

The dual direct/port injection system now makes perfect sense. It's easier for tuners to leave the direct injectors alone and add bigger port injectors for boosted fueling.
Thread over.
Kids Heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 12:32 PM   #59
Ryephile
Hot Dog
 
Ryephile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Drives: quicker than arghx7
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 1,313
Thanks: 75
Thanked 165 Times in 82 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Except that when you start hosing in port injected fueling, your chemical quench reduces and disturbs combustion wavefront/pressure uniformity. The result is you cannot run as much boost versus DI. This is why, in addition to making the engine cheaper, as shown in the picture above, the DIT-1.6 has DI-only.

It's a bit disappointing to read MotoIQ spewing bad tuning practices. A good tuner will continue to use the direct injectors at WOT assuming they can delivery the fuel mass.
__________________
"Wisdom is a not a function of age, but a function of experience."
Just Say No to unqualified aftermarket products.
Ryephile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 12:59 PM   #60
old greg
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Drives: PSM GGA OMG
Location: FL
Posts: 1,312
Thanks: 10
Thanked 141 Times in 84 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ20 View Post
yamaha (which is owned by Toyota)
5% constitutes ownership, really?
old greg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 02:03 PM   #61
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: Stuff
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,610
Thanks: 748
Thanked 5,013 Times in 2,275 Posts
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 8 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by old greg View Post
5% constitutes ownership, really?
On the internets a rumor constitutes ownership, duh.
__________________
-Dave
HPDE/DD: 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE || HPDE/DD: 2015 Subaru BRZ ||Tow Vehicle: 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 8.1L || Weekend toy: 1994 MR2 Turbo || The other weekend toy: 1993 MR2 Turbo || Track car: 1998 Integra Type-R || Race car: 1996 Integra GS-R || New race car build: 1992 Honda Civic Hatchback || Oh yeah and a 2013 Scion FR-S too..

Too many cars.. never.
Dave-ROR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 02:16 PM   #62
Matador
hashiryu
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Drives: Mk4 Supra
Location: Probably mucking around in an engine bay
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 18
Thanked 37 Times in 20 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by old greg View Post
5% constitutes ownership, really?
It does not, but Toyota and Yamaha's relationship goes a lot deeper and further back than just by what percentage of shares they own. You will find that Yamaha is far more interwound into Toyota than Fuji-Heavy (Subaru) for instance, of Who Toyota is the largest shareholder at 16.x% and there I go off topic so I'll just shut up now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
Except that when you start hosing in port injected fueling, your chemical quench reduces and disturbs combustion wavefront/pressure uniformity. The result is you cannot run as much boost versus DI. This is why, in addition to making the engine cheaper, as shown in the picture above, the DIT-1.6 has DI-only.

It's a bit disappointing to read MotoIQ spewing bad tuning practices. A good tuner will continue to use the direct injectors at WOT assuming they can delivery the fuel mass.
I'm not sure if they were prescribing shutting down the DI or just using the port injectors to augment the fueling.....
__________________
Welcome to FT86club.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimman View Post
The 'FT' stands for 'forgot topic'.
Matador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 02:55 PM   #63
cyde01
ft86club resident b-boy
 
cyde01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: Yamaha R3, thunder grey 2018 GT B
Location: LA Area So Cal
Posts: 1,205
Thanks: 139
Thanked 205 Times in 98 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
a couple things:

according to the autoblog 1st drive review of the brz, the fa20 DOES have AVCS. that's the only source i've seen mention it so i have no idea how accurate that statement is.

it's true that subaru initially didn't want d-4s, but it's also true that initially subaru wasn't aiming for 100 hp/liter or 200hp. they were literally planning to do nothing but stick the fb20 in there as is. it was chief engineer tada-san's insistence on a 100hp/liter engine with good gas mileage which led to the development of a brand new engine with d-4s and 86x86 square bore/stroke. initially subaru had their doubts whether d-4s really had such potential while toyota had doubts that subaru would be able to build a d-4s compatible block that would meet the specifications, but they got 200hp on their first try, which removed any doubts on both sides.

this is all info from the japanese press brochure that was passed out at the debut.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2565

Last edited by cyde01; 12-07-2011 at 06:04 PM.
cyde01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 03:27 PM   #64
tranzformer
Delights in pure handling
 
tranzformer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Drives: Zoom Zoom
Location: KS
Posts: 4,854
Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyde01 View Post
a couple things:

according to the autoblog 1st drive review of the brz, the fa20 DOES have AVCS. that's the only source i've seen mention it so i have no idea how accurate that statement is.
This is great news if it is true. Hopefully we will get more confirmation in the future (i.e. official).


Quote:
Originally Posted by cyde01 View Post
it's true that subaru initially didn't want d-4s, but it's also true that initially subaru wasn't aiming for 100 hp/liter or 200hp. they were literally planning to do nothing but stick the fb20 in there as is. it was chief engineer tada-san's insistence on a 100hp/liter engine with good gas mileage which led to the development of a brand new engine with d-4s and 86x86 square bore/stroke. initially subaru had their doubts whether d-4s really had such potential while toyota had doubts that subaru would be able to build a d-4s compatible block that would meet the specifications, but they got 200hp on their first try, which removed any doubts and both sides.

this is all info from the japanese press brochure that was passed out at the debut.

I am happy that Subaru and Toyota were able to work out their differences and create this car. I'm sure it was difficult for the two teams to come together and create this, especially with their different ideas of what the car should be. But it sounds like they did a great job and pulled it off. Will just have to wait until we can test drive it for ourselves.
tranzformer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 08:48 PM   #65
Matador
hashiryu
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Drives: Mk4 Supra
Location: Probably mucking around in an engine bay
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 18
Thanked 37 Times in 20 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyde01 View Post
a couple things:

according to the autoblog 1st drive review of the brz, the fa20 DOES have AVCS. that's the only source i've seen mention it so i have no idea how accurate that statement is.

it's true that subaru initially didn't want d-4s, but it's also true that initially subaru wasn't aiming for 100 hp/liter or 200hp. they were literally planning to do nothing but stick the fb20 in there as is. it was chief engineer tada-san's insistence on a 100hp/liter engine with good gas mileage which led to the development of a brand new engine with d-4s and 86x86 square bore/stroke. initially subaru had their doubts whether d-4s really had such potential while toyota had doubts that subaru would be able to build a d-4s compatible block that would meet the specifications, but they got 200hp on their first try, which removed any doubts on both sides.

this is all info from the japanese press brochure that was passed out at the debut.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2565
:happy0180:
Great stuff.
__________________
Welcome to FT86club.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimman View Post
The 'FT' stands for 'forgot topic'.
Matador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2011, 08:46 PM   #66
NorCalRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2009 Toytoa Tacoma 4x4 Dbl Cab LB
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 214
Thanks: 150
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
All these people still wondering if the ecu is tunable need not worry. There are pics of Crawford Performance at the Scion event logging into the frs ecu and dl'ing info. Crawford talks some about it on there FB page.
__________________
2013 SWP BRZ Limited(on order)
2012 Vw Jetta Sportwagen TDI 6mt Navi and Pano
2009 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 Double Cab Long Bed
1994 Honda Civic HB TurboCharged Track Car
NorCalRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2011, 04:17 PM   #67
Dimman
Kuruma Otaku
 
Dimman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Drives: Mk3 Supra with Semi-built 7MGTE
Location: Greater Vancouver (New West)
Posts: 6,855
Thanks: 2,398
Thanked 2,264 Times in 1,234 Posts
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by old greg View Post
5% constitutes ownership, really?
Not in the Western sense, no. But their history together goes back like 40 years. And Japanese business relationships are different.

Yamaha is part of the Toyota family. As is Subaru, Denso, Aisin, etc...
__________________


Because titanium.
Dimman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 10:41 AM   #68
Homemade WRX
Pro Subie Engine Nerd
 
Homemade WRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: BRZ has a reserved space
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Posts: 261
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
The MotoIQ site was simply stating an easy means to getting more fueling via port injection but leaving what you can with GDI.
I already have pieces in play for getting larger injectors, working with injector contact at the OEM level and aftermarket level as well as being on beta testing lists for two different EM companies...I'm really hoping my SOA contacts can get me permission to plug up and raid the ROM however.

Oh and the motor is clearing dual AVCS as well, for those wondering about it.

-Micah

P.S. As for Subaru testing GDI, I have some lovely W20 (EJ20 with dual AVCS) heads that are tapped fro GDI. I had a customer come across the prototype heads and sent them to me. So I suspect they started the project on a turbo EJ series engine before the FA or possibly before this project was truly focused.
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 12:00 PM   #69
Dimman
Kuruma Otaku
 
Dimman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Drives: Mk3 Supra with Semi-built 7MGTE
Location: Greater Vancouver (New West)
Posts: 6,855
Thanks: 2,398
Thanked 2,264 Times in 1,234 Posts
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
The MotoIQ site was simply stating an easy means to getting more fueling via port injection but leaving what you can with GDI.
I already have pieces in play for getting larger injectors, working with injector contact at the OEM level and aftermarket level as well as being on beta testing lists for two different EM companies...I'm really hoping my SOA contacts can get me permission to plug up and raid the ROM however.

Oh and the motor is clearing dual AVCS as well, for those wondering about it.

-Micah

P.S. As for Subaru testing GDI, I have some lovely W20 (EJ20 with dual AVCS) heads that are tapped fro GDI. I had a customer come across the prototype heads and sent them to me. So I suspect they started the project on a turbo EJ series engine before the FA or possibly before this project was truly focused.

I'd start with doing some D4-S research rather than pricing bigger port injectors. Current 2GRFSE's D4-S runs on DI alone at full throttle. And it has varied injector use % at different load/rpm ranges. It's not 50/50 port/DI all the time.

If it's as simple as it just has 2 maps (DI and port) then being able to activate the port injectors at full throttle may be all that is needed for enrichment. Pending pump capacity, of course.
__________________


Because titanium.
Dimman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 12:26 PM   #70
Ryephile
Hot Dog
 
Ryephile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Drives: quicker than arghx7
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 1,313
Thanks: 75
Thanked 165 Times in 82 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
The MotoIQ site was simply stating an easy means to getting more fueling via port injection but leaving what you can with GDI.
As long as you understand that adding port fueling will likely lower chemical quench and reduce combustion uniformity. Otherwise, it's foolish advice.
__________________
"Wisdom is a not a function of age, but a function of experience."
Just Say No to unqualified aftermarket products.
Ryephile is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
86 forum, 86 forums, brz forum, brz forums, fr-s forum, fr-s forums, frs forum, frs forums, scion fr-s forum, scion fr-s forums, scion frs forum, scion frs forums, subaru brz forum, subaru brz forums, toyota 86 forum, toyota 86 forums

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FT-86 Scoop by 7tune. Car coming in Nov. 2011 7tune-Adam Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 122 08-14-2010 01:15 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.