follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Xero Limit
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-05-2011, 11:35 PM   #29
Predwolf
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: '89 MR2
Location: Canada
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
If left to Subaru alone, it would've been an overweight, overpriced, AWD understeer plagued 'sports' car that no doubt would've went the way of the SVX.

If they're seriously fighting about this now, this entire project is doomed in two years.
Predwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Predwolf For This Useful Post:
Shadeslayer (07-12-2015)
Old 12-05-2011, 11:35 PM   #30
Drewsifer3X
Member
 
Drewsifer3X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Drives: 86 subaru xt
Location: Alabama
Posts: 22
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Heh. This perceived rivalry between subaru and toyota its going to drive fan boy rivalries (and sales) to new levels. Great marketing! (I'll be buying which ever is lightest, and/or cheapest and/or most readily available because well, they are the same car)
Drewsifer3X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2011, 11:36 PM   #31
coyote
Senior Member
 
coyote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Drives: Slowly
Location: brisbane.qld.au
Posts: 1,064
Thanks: 212
Thanked 537 Times in 235 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
There are so many potential problems with pistons, fuel pressure, injectors, timing, staging, etc. I did not at any point say they were unsolvable, but those potential headaches will be there and it will take significant time for solutions to become available.

When you are chasing horsepower, you want fewer headaches, not more.

I've been modifying Subarus for more than 15 years and I just like elegant solutions to problems, rather than complex ones. One major attraction of the Subaru brand is they seem to think the same way. I find it interesting that Subaru's answer to D4S was "no thanks".

I don't want to go ripping out brand new engines, but that does appear to be the most elegant solution. It certainly will be faster and may even be cheaper.
coyote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 12:05 AM   #32
Dimman
Kuruma Otaku
 
Dimman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Drives: Mk3 Supra with Semi-built 7MGTE
Location: Greater Vancouver (New West)
Posts: 6,855
Thanks: 2,398
Thanked 2,264 Times in 1,234 Posts
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote View Post
That's where we will need to end it and just agree to disagree.

Right now, I see D4S in the same light as twin spark ignition or sequential turbocharging.

I hope I'm wrong, but I will be investing my time and money in other areas (as was the apparent wish of the Subaru engineers).
Think of it like a better version of a twin injector bike engine (the close port and the before throttle 'showerhead'. So you may need to do some development/mapping on how much of each injector to use and when, but the result should be better combustion and detonation resistance. Don't worry about it.

As the D4-S operates now, it's 100% DI at full throttle, I believe. That gives you the whole port one for any enrichment that you may do after mods. (But how the pump and distribution two each one work, I don't know.)

Yes it's new, but it sounds like just because you are out of your comfort zone, you're assuming the worst.
__________________


Because titanium.
Dimman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 12:19 AM   #33
NESW20
2.1L 3SGTE
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: MR2 Turbo & Tacoma
Location: Columbus, IN
Posts: 1,249
Thanks: 29
Thanked 24 Times in 22 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
"chasing horsepower" is not what this car is about, FYI...........
__________________
1991 MR2 Turbo - 2.1L high compression stroker 3SGTE
2006 Tacoma 4x4 TRD Off Road - All-Pro front bumper, Old Man Emu shocks, Old Man Emu HD front coils, All-Pro leafs
1990 240SX Coupe - sold
2008 Civic Si Sedan
NESW20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 01:21 AM   #34
Silverpike
popular among the JDM
 
Silverpike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2014 BRZ Limited
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 88
Thanks: 7
Thanked 31 Times in 14 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I have some serious questions about tuning DI motors though:

  1. Where do I source larger injectors? To my knowledge, there are no aftermarket DI injectors I can buy off the shelf. OEMs only sell stock flow rate injectors.
  2. Has anyone in the aftermarket successfully tuned this Toyota dual-injector setup? All the cars I see using it are not tuner cars, and have no tuner following (all the *FSE motors seem to be JDM).
I love GDI, but this Toyota-specific system has me very worried about tunability.
Silverpike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 02:17 AM   #35
EJ20
Senior Member
 
EJ20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Drives: NA8C, GDB, and R50
Location: Qatar
Posts: 307
Thanks: 17
Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Without D4S and no turbo it probably would have been 160HP too.. who knows though. Doesn't really matter to me either way, we just need to deal with what we are getting
nah, did you ever come with the EJ204 from the JDM Legacy 2.0R back in 2004/2005?

That engine made a 190hp @ 7000~7200rpm with a redline of 7600. This was 6 years ago (not counting the development time before 2004!)
__________________
EJ20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 02:46 AM   #36
WingsofWar
MODERATOR-SAMA
 
WingsofWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: Swagtron Scooter
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,684
Thanks: 345
Thanked 1,555 Times in 524 Posts
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpike View Post
I have some serious questions about tuning DI motors though:

  1. Where do I source larger injectors? To my knowledge, there are no aftermarket DI injectors I can buy off the shelf. OEMs only sell stock flow rate injectors.
  2. Has anyone in the aftermarket successfully tuned this Toyota dual-injector setup? All the cars I see using it are not tuner cars, and have no tuner following (all the *FSE motors seem to be JDM).
I love GDI, but this Toyota-specific system has me very worried about tunability.
I suggest you do some more searching and learning. But let me give you the skinny. The reason why people such as yourself are so apprehensive about DI tuning is because its relatively new to the Petrol engine community, and there for not widespread, unlike port injection. But that doesnt mean there arnt any DI tuners.

There are plenty of DI gurus arising from big shops that deals with DI, such as Cobb banging out plenty of fast Mazdaspeed 3s. (those are DI). The reason why many toyotas/Lexus with DI have not been tuned is due to the fact that the ECU is encrypted and people would rather not bother.

The FRS/BRZ is one of the very few if not the only tuner friendly DI equipped car.

1. You do not need to source larger injectors for DI, theory says they never max out because they naturally atomize fuel at a leaner level.
2. If you do need more fuel, Port Injection is there to supplement any fuel needs.

I hope this easies your worries..now go and learn more my child! GOOO FROLIC IN THE MEDOWS!
__________________
WingsofWar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 03:30 AM   #37
Silverpike
popular among the JDM
 
Silverpike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2014 BRZ Limited
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 88
Thanks: 7
Thanked 31 Times in 14 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
I hope this easies your worries..now go and learn more my child! GOOO FROLIC IN THE MEDOWS!
Um, I appreciate the well-wishes, but some of the stuff you are saying is just incorrect.

Quote:
There are plenty of DI gurus arising from big shops that deals with DI, such as Cobb banging out plenty of fast Mazdaspeed 3s. (those are DI). The reason why many toyotas/Lexus with DI have not been tuned is due to the fact that the ECU is encrypted and people would rather not bother.
This is precisely what I'm worried about. Until I see proof positive, I'm worried the ECU is encrypted.

Quote:
The FRS/BRZ is one of the very few if not the only tuner friendly DI equipped car.
Not quite. The GM LNF motor is immensely popular, and has lots of factory tuning support.

Quote:
1. You do not need to source larger injectors for DI, theory says they never max out because they naturally atomize fuel at a leaner level.
Umm, this is physically impossible. Injector open duration has no relationship with atomization level.

All injectors, DI, EFI, NOS, or magic fairy dust have a duty cycle and are periodic, and 99% of the time are just a solenoid. They all have a maximum limits on open time.

MS3s by the way very much have an injector-limited power level. Most turbos don't cross this threshold. Big turbo builds must replace injectors. It's not clear whether the aftermarket has adapted DI for this yet; many simply switch to port injection.

Quote:
2. If you do need more fuel, Port Injection is there to supplement any fuel needs.
I'm hoping this is the case.
Silverpike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 03:33 AM   #38
CXTKRS1
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2009 Scion xD
Location: United States
Posts: 87
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Lulz this thread reminds me when GM released the Cobalt SS and HHR SS with the 2.0 DI engine.
CXTKRS1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 03:40 AM   #39
coyote
Senior Member
 
coyote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Drives: Slowly
Location: brisbane.qld.au
Posts: 1,064
Thanks: 212
Thanked 537 Times in 235 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post
You do not need to source larger injectors for DI, theory says they never max out because they naturally atomize fuel at a leaner level.
Ya what?
coyote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 03:58 AM   #40
WingsofWar
MODERATOR-SAMA
 
WingsofWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: Swagtron Scooter
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,684
Thanks: 345
Thanked 1,555 Times in 524 Posts
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpike View Post
This is precisely what I'm worried about. Until I see proof positive, I'm worried the ECU is encrypted.
Is this the only thing your worried about? because its been stated that the ECU has been unlocked for this purpose. And many tuners already have a pre-production vehicle and is most probably working on the ECU as we speak.

There should be a thread somewhere about a tuner who already has the car.

Anyway...about the Atomization, your right theres no relation to duty cycle. However Iv read that not many people have crossed that threshold of maxing out DI injectors UNLESS they are doing big turbo. And the reason why people are having issues is because they cant figure out how to richen the mixture. So yes all injectors have power limits, but even on Cobb build articles they havent stated that they need bigger injectors, All i ever read is.."having trouble with being too lean"

In Regards to the FA20/4U-GSE do you think you are going to be needing so much fuel that your DI injectors will max out? or will your Port Injectors not suppliment your fuel needs? If your going turbo, would it not be more cost effective to swap the engine for power goals rather than rebuild the entire block to accept FI and lower the compression if that were the case for fuel needs?
__________________
WingsofWar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 05:33 AM   #41
Kostamojen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Drives: 2017 GTI Sport
Location: Roseville, CA
Posts: 2,071
Thanks: 217
Thanked 943 Times in 497 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ20 View Post
nah, did you ever come with the EJ204 from the JDM Legacy 2.0R back in 2004/2005?

That engine made a 190hp @ 7000~7200rpm with a redline of 7600. This was 6 years ago (not counting the development time before 2004!)
I was just about to post this :p

I've been trying to find the dyno chart (subaru supplied chart from the .jp webpage) for that engine, but I don't think I saved it

At one point I was about to try and import one of those motors...
Kostamojen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 05:40 AM   #42
Mari0
Car Enthusiast
 
Mari0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Drives: tC 05 & 07, Rav4
Location: Northern California
Posts: 524
Thanks: 218
Thanked 122 Times in 61 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurburgring View Post
- 50 litre fuel tank!
What is that? ~13.2 gallons? at ~30mpg, that's almost 400miles per tank. not bad.
Mari0 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
86 forum, 86 forums, brz forum, brz forums, fr-s forum, fr-s forums, frs forum, frs forums, scion fr-s forum, scion fr-s forums, scion frs forum, scion frs forums, subaru brz forum, subaru brz forums, toyota 86 forum, toyota 86 forums

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FT-86 Scoop by 7tune. Car coming in Nov. 2011 7tune-Adam Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 122 08-14-2010 01:15 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.