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Old 07-27-2017, 06:15 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve99 View Post
Probably have to run a "track" tune with less timing than your "road" tune or run some higher octane fuel on track day ??

Now you could do that with wayno's flex fuel tune, just disable all the flex fueling adjustments. Put a toggle switch to earth into the evap input on ECU.

Then you can just toggle between two timing and AFR maps with the toggle switch. Put track values in one set ie bit lower timing and maybe bit richer afr and road setting in other more timing leaner afr.
Not a bad idea but for all the trouble I would probably rather invest in Ecutek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2 View Post
Do you log oil temperatures? I also have built a tune for a cat less header (Ace 350) with the rest of the exhaust and intake being stock. I see similar knock to yours, where there is no knock for all sorts of street and autocross driving, but on track I get significant FLKC without an IAM drop. This only happens for me when oil temperature rises above ~ 240 F. I suspect cylinder head temperatures have risen to the point that knock becomes frequent.

The solution is probably a street map and a track map, or perhaps some sort of ROM hack where we replace coolant temperature timing compensation with oil temperature timing compensation. Not sure how well that would work with an oil cooler though.
The oil temps were 193 to 204 F in the depicted log. Even on track I rarely get above 220 F. But how much is oil responsible for cooling the cylinder heads anyway? Wouldn't that rather be coolant?

I could imagine though, that the heating up of combustion chambers and pistons is a factor. As well a previous smaller knock events may contribute to rising temps and cause even further heating then more knock in a chain reaction.

That our oil temps rise too along with the internals of the engine is given since both are dependant on how hard you run the engine. It doesn't mean that oil temp in itself is causing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidONE View Post
I've the same issues mentioned including the 'phantom' knock not alleviated by dialing back base timing and increased KC in higher gears tuning with the OFT/Romraider.

Carry on discussion gentlemen.
I just looked trough old logs. I don't have than many of 4th/5th gear pulls. But I found 2 from the same tune that are quite interesting.

First at 17 C IAT (62 F) 5th gear and second at 34 C IAT (93 F) 4th gear only. The particular tune had TCPC enabled. Notice that the 17 C pull has 11ish AFR vs 11.5. Guess which FLKC more at the relevant area...

17 C, 5th:


34 C, 4th:



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Originally Posted by Wayno View Post
That's fine if you only want to think of things in two dimensions, but exhausts have a finite volume. You should think of them more like a buffer. After a certain period of time at a certain load, with certain egt's, etc, the buffer will start to fill and increase back-pressure.

You spend a lot more time above 6800 in 5th than 3rd don't you ?
Something like 12s compared to 2s ?

Your cattemp shows 600 in 3rd and 660 is 5th.
What happens to the volume of gas as you increase the temperature?

Maybe look at more of your data channels?

A stock header (with hollowed out cat or not) is not designed to flow well above 7k, as intended by the factory engineers. Any turbulence may also increase back-pressure.
I use the Gruppe S header, granted not a header designed for best high rpm power. But whether the header is at fault or not is not so important to me, as I don't plan to exchange it. So what's more important is how I can tune my way out of it.

You are of course right that it sits way longer at higher rpm in a higher gear. Whether it causes the exhaust to "pile up" as you suggest or simply just adds more heat is a good question, relevant to how to tune it.

Since it doesn't FLKC significantly in the colder 5th gear run, I would assume the flow if the header is not the restriction, but rather it's a heat issue. Thanks for suggesting it anyway, as it helped to get my thoughts focused.

So far I can see the following things to try out:

- Reintroduce TCPC
Maybe it's there to manage heat?
- Run richer.
Maybe it's for cooling that the stock POL dips into AFR 10s above 6800 rpm?
- Add more IAT timing compensation above 20 C IAT.

If nothing works, then I'll do as you say and remove 2 deg timing and then upgrade to Ecutek at some point.
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:53 AM   #16
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I thought you had a hollowed out stock header for "emissions".
But regardless of stock or UEL, neither match EL above 7k.

I seriously wouldn't even worry about it. People thrash these cars on track all the time.

Let the ECU do its job and pull the timing, that's what it's programmed to do.
old:
http://datazap.me/u/wayne/stg2-ace-9...0&data=2-19-27
older:
http://datazap.me/u/wayne/bpb-98-v92...0&data=2-12-15
older:
http://datazap.me/u/wayne/bpb-v87lea...0&data=2-11-14
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Wayno View Post
I thought you had a hollowed out stock header for "emissions".
But regardless of stock or UEL, neither match EL above 7k.

I seriously wouldn't even worry about it. People thrash these cars on track all the time.

Let the ECU do its job and pull the timing, that's what it's programmed to do.
old:
http://datazap.me/u/wayne/stg2-ace-9...0&data=2-19-27
older:
http://datazap.me/u/wayne/bpb-98-v92...0&data=2-12-15
older:
http://datazap.me/u/wayne/bpb-v87lea...0&data=2-11-14
That was the initial plan, but I got the Gruppe-S in the end. We talked about this quite a bit already. But no worries, sometimes both my Short Term Memory and LTM cause timing to be pulled too. Most embarrassing was a girl I dated a few times, and after a few glasses of wine, I had forgotten her name. I was showing her something on my computer and, to say at least, it bacame awkward when she asked me to add her on Facebook.

I get worse FLKC than all those logs, and I wasn't even on track. The question is if the amount of FLKC equals the severity of the of the initial knock that triggered it. Or if duration etc. plays a part in how much the ECU applies.

I would prefer not to have a severe knock event initially every time I go to 4th/5th gear and until the ECU pulls the timing. I suppose the ECU clears the corrections if getting a clean run in lower gears and would then have to reapply the correction next time going into 4th/5th.

Hence, the question "how much is too much"? But I guess it's an open question that only Subaru (or a blown engine) would reveal. And probably each has to answer for themselves.

Also if I can make changes that make it pull less I have more power obviously. So maybe it's worth sacrificing a bit performance in lower gears to get more power in the higher ones.
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:59 PM   #18
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@Tor


Bit of lateral thinking


be good if we had a cat temp vs load/timing table but we don't unless we go ecutek.




But maybe we can use coolant temp. The knock seems to get worse as coolant temps exceed about 87 degrees.


We could use the ECT vs timing retard table to retard timing at all rpm if coolant exceeds 88. but that a bit crude.


but I think you said you had zeroed out the per cylinder timing comp tables.


now their is a coolant temp threshold for activation of the per cylinder timing compensation tables it set to 60 degrees


so if we set that to say 88 so per cylinder timing comp only active above 88 degrees coolant temp


Then we can populate the per cylinder comp tables a/b/c/d to just pull timing at loads over 1.1 rpm over 6000.


so then it will only pull timing id Coolant over 88 load over 1.1 and rpm over 6000 and you could adjust the timing pulled based on all three parameters


you could do a bit of axis rescaling on those comp tables to suit you better
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Old 07-27-2017, 04:18 PM   #19
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I like the idea of using some sort of temperature feedback to retard timing, maybe coolant temp is sensitive enough for this. My point with the oil temp is that it reliably indicates for me a "hot" engine, but obviously high oil temperature is not causal to knock.

Ideally we would have cylinder head temperature sensorst, but in lieu of them perhaps coolant temp can be used, the tables are already set up for this. The question is that of sensitivity, does coolant temp increase enough on track to reliably be used as an ignition scaler? I never bothered to log it on track since I was never concerned about it NA. @steve99, is 88C a number you've seen in logs?
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Old 07-27-2017, 06:16 PM   #20
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It an interesting idea, but unfortunately I think there are too many factors influencing ECT and the variations are too small. It also seems there is a delay and it might apply the retard too late.

Eg. standing at a light (with fans running):


Or driving at high speed:


I think it's likely that you end up having retard when not desired and probably also it won't retard when it is desired.

Setting it at 89 would probably also mean that you have the retard on all the time on track anyway and you might as well just remove it directly in Base Timing B. For me it's not so much about street vs track. I don't mind running a track tune permanently. What I am trying to avoid is to sacrifice performance in 2nd and 3rd gear, that I could otherwise be running without problems even on track.

15 mins track:


Probably Wayno is right, just to leave it to the ECU. Or pull a bit and let the ECU handle some. I don't expect it to be FLKC free at all, I just think these were rather high levels (not this track log above, but the Autobahn log in the first post).
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Old 07-27-2017, 06:33 PM   #21
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If you go on Romraider, when they mention a lot of pulled timing they are on about 3+ degrees A degree or so here and there is just the ECU doing it's job. If you want to try the PCC timing changes then maybe look at the MY17 for examples. It may be that certain cylinders are getting hotter 1st. Shame you can't add fuel to those specific cylinders too. Or view the knock input with regard to each cylinder.

Are you really going to notice a couple less HP in low gears? I would imagine not. Might drop your 0-60 time by 0.05 seconds.....

If you really want to try correlating data then you need to combine as many varied logs as you can and throw them into a tool with various filters etc. I know Vgi's tool can manage 20MB of data with no issue, Viperdata is also good for that.
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Old 07-28-2017, 05:01 AM   #22
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If you go on Romraider, when they mention a lot of pulled timing they are on about 3+ degrees A degree or so here and there is just the ECU doing it's job. If you want to try the PCC timing changes then maybe look at the MY17 for examples. It may be that certain cylinders are getting hotter 1st. Shame you can't add fuel to those specific cylinders too. Or view the knock input with regard to each cylinder.

Are you really going to notice a couple less HP in low gears? I would imagine not. Might drop your 0-60 time by 0.05 seconds.....

If you really want to try correlating data then you need to combine as many varied logs as you can and throw them into a tool with various filters etc. I know Vgi's tool can manage 20MB of data with no issue, Viperdata is also good for that.
It pulled max -3.20, so it's up there. And this was after warming up the engine and going straight on the the Autobahn and doing that pull. So no previous heak soak. So I do want to reduce it somewhat. Something like max down to -2 deg in 5th would be my goal.

I'll try these changes and see how it works:
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:37 AM   #23
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If you made the same timing reduction on all four per cylinder comps and didnt increase the temp threshold then its probably easier to just pull the timing from base B. ??
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:39 AM   #24
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I like the idea of using some sort of temperature feedback to retard timing, maybe coolant temp is sensitive enough for this. My point with the oil temp is that it reliably indicates for me a "hot" engine, but obviously high oil temperature is not causal to knock.

Ideally we would have cylinder head temperature sensorst, but in lieu of them perhaps coolant temp can be used, the tables are already set up for this. The question is that of sensitivity, does coolant temp increase enough on track to reliably be used as an ignition scaler? I never bothered to log it on track since I was never concerned about it NA. @steve99, is 88C a number you've seen in logs?
Not sure what BCC is did you mean per cylinder comp ??
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:32 PM   #25
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Not sure what BCC is did you mean per cylinder comp ??
Do you mean 88C as in 88 degrees celcius?
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:51 PM   #26
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Do you mean 88C as in 88 degrees celcius?

haha was reading on phone, yeah 88C . that was just a figure I saw in his logs where the knock started to get worse. you will probably see up to 95 or so on hot days NA car
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Old 07-29-2017, 04:08 AM   #27
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If you made the same timing reduction on all four per cylinder comps and didnt increase the temp threshold then its probably easier to just pull the timing from base B. ??
Only on cylinder A+B, like the stock tune. I'll see if that helps first, but I am away for the weekend so it won't be until next week when time/work permits.
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Old 07-31-2017, 12:08 AM   #28
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I'm not sure if you are running an oil cooler, but check out @DarkSunrise's logs. I'm not sure how much ignition advance he is sacrificing for the sake of having a knock resistant tune for the track, but it pretty damn solid if you asked me. I think a big contributor to this is his track oil temps. "Dem oil temps" "Dat knock resistance"

Track Data Log thread: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108142
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