Do Lightweight Pulleys FREE Power? With Poll

[industrial]

Is it that time of year again for this old debate?

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by NonStopTuning

There are a number of misleading/misguided arguments in the last few posts, but I will address this 1...

Saying that a sample size of 1 is comical, is either as a result of ignorance, an attempt to be inflammatory, or simply stupid. The sample size of people using NST products is more like 10,000 across more than a dozen platforms (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc) and across several continents. 10,000+ users, 99% of which are happy with these products over a span of 10+ years. Some of these users are street car owners, some are weekend warriors, some are professional race car drivers and team members.

Then you have a small group of people who have never tested, much less used, these products claiming that they are terrible and should not be used.

If 10,000+ people used a product for a decade and told you it worked, and a few people looked at pictures of said product on the internet for a few seconds and said it didn't work, of course you would take the word of the latter as gospel, right? The 10,000+ real world users must all be stupid... yes, that's it.

Best of luck with all your projects everyone!

Actually all I said was a sample size of one isn't representative of anything. Even more so when that data is no more than " yeah it feels like it works".

[socal_48]

Had NST light weight pulleys on my AE86 for about 8 years now. I used to daily it until I got another car and have taken it to the track multiple times. No problem at all. Oh, I also have light weight flywheel and drive shaft.

[celek]

Originally Posted by swarb

Pretends to make a technical topic. Becomes an advertisement.

Got them google clicks though

[Bergen23]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Actually all I said was a sample size of one isn't representative of anything. Even more so when that data is no more than " yeah it feels like it works".

Fucking this. Everyone claims "much improved throttle response. so free revving. such freed power. wow"

[sw20kosh]

Pulleys do absolutely nothing. Headers doh....

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by why?

do you know which SFI? Does it say that anywhere? Do you really think that is something other than marketing bs?

That is like saying MLB approves of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays because they are a baseball team.

Now if these cars were antique massive v8's, then it might be an issue. But they aren't.

What do you mean which SFI? There's only one SFI, but if you want to know the actual part of the SFI specifications that pertain to dampers, it's 18.1. It's not marketing BS, SFI is a safety rating. Not that many people are going to be going faster than 10.99, so it's not really required, but most people would rather have a better made and functional part...

Originally Posted by why?

Btw, do you understand what it actually means? Pretty much nothing. They don't give out grades, they don't let you see any user base, they just post up some obscure SFI number and just like the BBB, they expect it to mean something. If these damper things were so great, why are they the only ones making them, but every company that can has a lightweight pulley of some sort? Seriously there is at least half a dozen different companies making a lightweight pulley for the 86.

Actually, no, it's not like the BBB, but it's apparent you're ignorant in this. There's a ton of different brands that make proper dampers, yet again, your ignorance in the matter doesn't mean it's not true. The reason lightweight crank pulleys are made and sold is the same reason there are a million different miracle cures for engine issues that are all nothing more than petroleum distillates... placebo effect and people want to believe.

Originally Posted by why?

I'm just here to make fun of everyone without any actual experience. It entertains me. The CSG team is pretty much the only people who have any experience besides NST. The funny part about it is both can easily be right simply because different cars and different people can easily equal different results. Don't take me as a spokesperson for anyone or anything.

And you're ignorant of everyone's background here, so why make remarks like this?

Originally Posted by why?

And there is a massive number of people running pulleys to the point it is hard to find an auto enthusiast forum that does not have a bunch of people doing it. Do you really think there would be 6 companies (at least) making a lightweight pully for the 86 if there was any chance they could cause real damage in this insane lawyer happy country?

Haven't looked at any of these product websites closely have you? Nearly all have disclaimers about their products being for "off road use only" which absolves them of any claims of damage.

Originally Posted by why?

You don't find a harmonic balancer on every oem. You find a steel paperweight with a tiny strip of rubber.
Why would they pay for something that is dramatically less expensive? Gee I wonder. Same reason the 86's aren't FI from the factory, same reason they used Prius tires, same reason everyone who wants to track it needs an oil cooler, etc.

The stock pulley is more expensive to produce than a simple pulley turned on a lathe. Yes, most of the aftermarket ones go out of their way to shave more weight, so they require a bit more machining than that, but the general point is this: if the OEM's could save PENNIES on a part, they would. The multi piece damper pulley could be made FAR cheaper if it didn't have the damper, so why is it there?


If you really think they're cheaper to produce, you might want to do some research...

Originally Posted by why?

The NVH argument is not bs. Thinking that tiny strip of rubber actually does anything is bs. If you want to see a real harmonic damper and piece that actually helps to balance an engine go look at actual engines that are externally balanced. There is a gigantic difference.

It's a DAMPER, not a BALANCER. These are two very different things. It's there for torsional harmonics, not to balance an engine.

[OkieSnuffBox]

^Game. Set. Match.

[zooki]

Check & Checkmate... 👍

[why?]

Originally Posted by Bergen23

Fucking this. Everyone claims "much improved throttle response. so free revving. such freed power. wow"

No one says that. That would be totally moronic. Reading comprehension is important.

Originally Posted by Poodles

What do you mean which SFI? There's only one SFI, but if you want to know the actual part of the SFI specifications that pertain to dampers, it's 18.1. It's not marketing BS, SFI is a safety rating. Not that many people are going to be going faster than 10.99, so it's not really required, but most people would rather have a better made and functional part....

Yawn, lots of words. You seem to be very angry for some reason. Obviously I hit the nail. Yay me.

Google SFI, there are lots of them. You are assuming they mean the one you think they do, why?

Oh it's safety, so you are saying a team of engineers from this SFI runs the product through a lengthy process, or does the company just do it? . I bet thatThis guy's roll cage had an SFI number too. Didn't help much, right?

Originally Posted by Poodles

Actually, no, it's not like the BBB, but it's apparent you're ignorant in this. There's a ton of different brands that make proper dampers, yet again, your ignorance in the matter doesn't mean it's not true. The reason lightweight crank pulleys are made and sold is the same reason there are a million different miracle cures for engine issues that are all nothing more than petroleum distillates... placebo effect and people want to believe.

Not a placebo, but you can believe that if you want. That is like saying a lightweight flywheel is just a placebo even though it has the same effect.
Yea, It is like the BBB. A group that makes "ratings" to make companies look good, but don't actually do much when said companies screw up. Unless your SFI has the power to shut the company down and take everything the company has to use as compensation for victims, it is just like the BBB.

Originally Posted by Poodles

And you're ignorant of everyone's background here, so why make remarks like this?

People's backgrounds don't matter when they say stupid crap and cannot back it up. You are using words with zero data or proof. Why I mentioned CSG and NST, both have actual data and actual experience with lightweight pulley's and what can happen.

Originally Posted by Poodles

Haven't looked at any of these product websites closely have you? Nearly all have disclaimers about their products being for "off road use only" which absolves them of any claims of damage.

Every aftermarket company has disclaimers for off road use only claims. It doesn't remotely absolve them of any damage claims in this insanely lawyer happy company. That is not how the laws work. If you are truly worried a product might do damage, you should not use that product. Unless that product has massive amounts of actual user data that proves your fears to be 100% totally unjustified and flat out wrong.

Originally Posted by Poodles

The stock pulley is more expensive to produce than a simple pulley turned on a lathe. Yes, most of the aftermarket ones go out of their way to shave more weight, so they require a bit more machining than that, but the general point is this: if the OEM's could save PENNIES on a part, they would. The multi piece damper pulley could be made FAR cheaper if it didn't have the damper, so why is it there?
If you really think they're cheaper to produce, you might want to do some research...
It's a DAMPER, not a BALANCER. These are two very different things. It's there for torsional harmonics, not to balance an engine.

Sorry, a steel hunk of metal with some rubber is not expensive to produce. If it cost less every oem would use aluminum or other more advanced lighter materials for everything, but those materials are always more expensive.

And you are assuming you know why the little piece of rubber is actually there. But have you actually asked any new car engineer if that is really why it is there?

Damper and balancer are very similar things in automobile parlance, to the point if you google one you get the other... Funny how the wiki article even mentions Flat 8 engines, lol. This stuff is probably very important on old school V-8 engines and the like. Which the BRZ is most certainly not.

Here's the deal, find me proof of any lightweight pulley actually damaging an otherwise stock small displacement normally aspirated engine. Go for it, show actual proof these things can hurt the engine. I'll be waiting.

[stugray]

This has already been discussed in numerous threads and has been beaten to death.

Here is one of the best quotes out of all of them:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...armonic&page=6

Originally Posted by Infamous Performance

There are dampners, but no balancers.

Some basic info:
Each time the air/fuel mixture inside a cylinder is ignited, the combustion that occurs creates a torque spike that is applied to the crankshaft through the piston and rod. This torque spike is so severe that it not only turns the crankshaft, it actually twists the crankshaft ahead of its normal rotation and then the crankshaft rebounds. This twisting action is known as torsional vibration. When these torque spikes and forces get into phase with the natural frequency, critical torsional harmonic vibrations occur and can be seriously destructive to the bearings and the crankshaft. Dampers are designed to control those destructive vibrations.


Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components. Dampers also create heat while they work, and rubber is a poor dissipator of heat. This heat and the exposure to the elements deteriorates rubber, causing it to crack and change durometer, which then leads to inertia ring slippage, damper failure, uncontrolled torsional vibration, and costly engine parts breakage.

Here are some quick facts:

1 - The OEM part IS a torsional harmonic dampener - period.
It is a classic case of one AND is likely built around specific harmonic frequencies. AND it is HEAVY - one of the adjustable parameters when designing a dampener.

2 - The OEM part is positively, unquestionably MORE EXPENSIVE for the manufacturer to use than one machined from billet Al.

3 - Switching from the OEM pulley to a lightened pulley set WILL result in a noticeable difference in rev up/down when the engine is decoupled from the drivetrain.

4 - Switching from the OEM pulley to a lightened pulley set (NO Underdrive) WILL NOT result in a noticeable difference in rev up/down when the engine is COUPLED TO the drivetrain.
EXCEPT for the difference in overall VEHICLE weight from the change.

DISCLAIMER: When I use the term "noticeable" above, I mean by a human's butt-dyno.
Of course you could "determine" there WAS a difference in 1/4 mile times between the two setups, but it would still be in the noise of the measuring equipment (likely in the milliseconds).


Overall - If lightening the rotating mass is SOO damn desirable, why have a flywheel AT ALL?

[why?]

And I could throw up a wall of text from people that know that says the exact opposite of everything you wrote. Can you find me proof of any lightweight pulley actually damaging an otherwise stock small displacement normally aspirated engine? Go for it, show actual proof these things can hurt the engine. I'll be waiting.

Seriously, engines are different, engine tech has advanced massively, why do people thinks stuff from even a decade ago is the same as it is now?

Lightened mass is desirable because it makes the car function better in every way possible. Pretty sure flywheels are necessary, but since I am not an automotive engineer and am not omniscient, I could be wrong.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by why?

Pretty sure flywheels are necessary, but since I am not an automotive engineer and am not omniscient, I could be wrong.

Yet you are 'positive' that lightening the torsional dampener installed by the automotive engineers is not harmful?

I dont think you can have it both ways.

Where is @tennisfreak when you need him?

[churchx]

Originally Posted by stugray

... - If lightening the rotating mass is SOO damn desirable, why have a flywheel AT ALL?

Same for ecu tune, if manufacturer always knows better, why we ever do that?
Simply because manufacturer may have different priorities in mind (less repairs/longer life/play safer for misc potentially shitty fuels world-wide and so on).
Just like with tunes some customers may decide that OE safety margin is too big, they prioritise squeezing out every bit of performance out. To each his own.
As for me - i'm in the middle, not fully siding with any side. I'd love to see slight performance gains, yes. Goes along wish to lighten rest of drivetrain/rotational parts, like shaft/wheels/brakes to slightly up acceleration for this platform that seemingly has limit for na NA power. Also seen posts from engine builders/servicers about very quickly shot crank bearings on FA20/EJ20 where both LW FW & CP were used, but said that lightening just one by their book was fine. Hence if i'll ever decide on lightening pulleys/FW/CP, i'll listen to both sides and will act by advices from both of them.