Track suspension advice

[ddeflyer]

So I am looking into suspension upgrades with a strong focus on track performance though the car will still be street driven. Right now I only have the whiteline camber bolts; everything else is completely stock. I am budgeting quite a bit for this so all kinds of advice are welcome. That said, I do want to avoid the depths of the diminishing returns curve.

So far from what I have see I think I will need to replace the lower control arms on the rear and get some camber plates on the front. Looking at CSG's site I see alot of options but frankly I am still in the early stages of planning out this round of upgrades so I don't understand alot of the trade offs there.

So the question becomes, what pieces do I realistically need to be upgrading/replacing and what attributes should I focus on? I am having alot of trouble telling which parts are meant to do great things on the track and which are meant for stanced cars?

[CSG Mike]

In order of importance:

Dampers
Camber plates
Rear lower control arms
Monoball top hats
Spring choice
bushings/bearings
braces

A serious setup will have at least the top 5

Feel free to post up all the questions you have and I'll do my best to answer.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

In order of importance:

Dampers
Camber plates
Rear lower control arms
Monoball top hats
Spring choice
bushings/bearings
braces

A serious setup will have at least the top 5

Feel free to post up all the questions you have and I'll do my best to answer.

So the first question I have is that I like to do one item and then do a track weekend to get a feel for the difference that makes (both to help me adapt more to the changes and also to make sure I can help others later on down the road by being able to quantify the changes I observed.). Are suspension changes amenable to this or is it better to do larger set of changes? I also would prefer to avoid waisting money on parts that are required to change on the next set of upgrades (for example, from what I can see the raceseng camber plates would require different bushings and shock nuts for stock vs. other coil overs).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

So the first question I have is that I like to do one item and then do a track weekend to get a feel for the difference that makes (both to help me adapt more to the changes and also to make sure I can help others later on down the road by being able to quantify the changes I observed.). Are suspension changes amenable to this or is it better to do larger set of changes? I also would prefer to avoid waisting money on parts that are required to change on the next set of upgrades (for example, from what I can see the raceseng camber plates would require different bushings and shock nuts for stock vs. other coil overs).

Raceseng camber plates can be swapped to fit ANY damper by simply swapping the inserts; you don't pay anywhere near full price again. That's why we love them.

As you said, do it once, do it right. Getting something "for now" (cheaper suspension) will ultimately cost you more.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

In order of importance:

Dampers
...

If you have the resources, go with high-end two-ways like the JRZ RS' Mike sells, the Motion Control units, etc. - that level of performance. Not cheap, but they make a huge difference.

[ddeflyer]

So looking through the suspension parts on the CSG site, I am not seeing anything about pillow ball mounts. Is that a part of some of camber plates or some of the top end coilovers?

Also what I think is a pretty stupid question (rather not assume), but all the coilover kits are four all four corners, right?

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by dradernh

If you have the resources, go with high-end two-ways like the JRZ RS' Mike sells, the Motion Control units, etc. - that level of performance. Not cheap, but they make a huge difference.

I'm thinking of budgeting something in the range of 7-8K for the suspension assuming that doesn't get too far into the diminishing returns curve (I don't want to spend money on suspension when other things could be of more benefit).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

So looking through the suspension parts on the CSG site, I am not seeing anything about pillow ball mounts. Is that a part of some of camber plates or some of the top end coilovers?

Also what I think is a pretty stupid question (rather not assume), but all the coilover kits are four all four corners, right?

Pillowball top mounts are generally included in the high end setups (even the entry level high end stuff).

Once you get past 6k for dampers (damper only), you start hitting that diminishing returns point; that's where motorsport grade dampers start. The gains you get a 3/4 way adjustable dampers (high speed rebound and high speed compression), and lightweight components (that are less durable).

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Pillowball top mounts are generally included in the high end setups (even the entry level high end stuff).

Once you get past 6k for dampers (damper only), you start hitting that diminishing returns point; that's where motorsport grade dampers start. The gains you get a 3/4 way adjustable dampers (high speed rebound and high speed compression), and lightweight components (that are less durable).

Ok, given that my budget there is for parts only and I can go somewhat higher if needed, I think I'm in the right ball park.

From some of the other reading I've done, it sounds like 4-6K dampers don't tend to totally trash the ride on the street (still compromised, but not totally), is that true or is that more of a myth?

Also, is there any sweeping generalizations (as in abc has better consistency while xyz is more durable) to be made about the different damper manufacturers or is it really more kit specific than that?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

Ok, given that my budget there is for parts only and I can go somewhat higher if needed, I think I'm in the right ball park.

From some of the other reading I've done, it sounds like 4-6K dampers don't tend to totally trash the ride on the street (still compromised, but not totally), is that true or is that more of a myth?

Also, is there any sweeping generalizations (as in abc has better consistency while xyz is more durable) to be made about the different damper manufacturers or is it really more kit specific than that?

Actually, it's the complete opposite. As a generalization:

500-1500 suspension: downgrade from stock, but gives you adjustability
2000-3000: definite performance upgrade, but ride is typically compromised
3500-6000: continued performance upgrade, ride can be as good as or better than stock with the proper valving.

Once you're looking at the high end dampers, you cannot go wrong with any of the brands (JRZ, Penske, Ohlins, Sachs). Typically, you go with whatever your local damper specialist is most familiar/comfortable with.

In our case, JRZ and Tein are local to us (within 15 miles), so we favor those brands. We also have direct access to custom valving Penske and Ohlins, as well as Bilsteins and Konis (with 50 miles of CSG)

We work manufacturer direct with JRZ, Tein, Penske, and Ohlins, but typically have JRZ, Penske, and Ohlins revalved/serviced locally.

With the high end dampers, expect to spend some extra getting a revalve or two, based on your preferences, to really dial in the damping exactly how you want.


For example, you can have a race spec damping curve, and still maintain acceptable street ride (high spring rates; firm, but not harsh ride), or a very comfortable street ride using low spring rates, but still have much improved cornering performance (low spring rates, plush, but not vague/slow to respond in cornering)


At the last Winmax 86 CUP event, the front runners in mod and supermod classes are both on JRZ suspension. The usual frontrunners in Street class (who didn't make it to this event) are on Ohlins and Teins.

Barring the driver mod, the common element is high end dampers.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Actually, it's the complete opposite. As a generalization:

500-1500 suspension: downgrade from stock, but gives you adjustability
2000-3000: definite performance upgrade, but ride is typically compromised
3500-6000: continued performance upgrade, ride can be as good as or better than stock with the proper valving.

Once you're looking at the high end dampers, you cannot go wrong with any of the brands (JRZ, Penske, Ohlins, Sachs). Typically, you go with whatever your local damper specialist is most familiar/comfortable with.

In our case, JRZ and Tein are local to us (within 15 miles), so we favor those brands. We also have direct access to custom valving Penske and Ohlins, as well as Bilsteins and Konis (with 50 miles of CSG)

We work manufacturer direct with JRZ, Tein, Penske, and Ohlins, but typically have JRZ, Penske, and Ohlins revalved/serviced locally.

With the high end dampers, expect to spend some extra getting a revalve or two, based on your preferences, to really dial in the damping exactly how you want.


For example, you can have a race spec damping curve, and still maintain acceptable street ride (high spring rates; firm, but not harsh ride), or a very comfortable street ride using low spring rates, but still have much improved cornering performance (low spring rates, plush, but not vague/slow to respond in cornering)


At the last Winmax 86 CUP event, the front runners in mod and supermod classes are both on JRZ suspension. The usual frontrunners in Street class (who didn't make it to this event) are on Ohlins and Teins.

Barring the driver mod, the common element is high end dampers.

Ok, that is awesome, I like broad improvements!

So how much does re-valving typically cost?

Also, what is usually the best approach for ride height? I don't really have a preference one way or another but I assume there are trade offs to stock and lowered heights, right?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

Ok, that is awesome, I like broad improvements!

So how much does re-valving typically cost?

Also, what is usually the best approach for ride height? I don't really have a preference one way or another but I assume there are trade offs to stock and lowered heights, right?

Typically 150-175 per damper + parts (oil, shims, seals, etc.) + shipping if applicable

Stock height = least droop, most compression travel; lowered = more droop, less compression.

Based on your needs and chosen spring rates, we typically recommend a good compromise between suspension travel and geometry. Most cars do well with a small drop combined with higher spring rates.

We currently sit at about a 1.4" drop, but run higher spring rates than most.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Pillowball top mounts are generally included in the high end setups (even the entry level high end stuff).

Ok, question. This has been bugging me for a while.

Why do some coilovers not come with camber plates? And not Billy Bob's Garage Spec parts either, but decent names like the Bilstein B16. I would think that the top mount would be a somewhat integral part of a coilover.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Ok, question. This has been bugging me for a while.

Why do some coilovers not come with camber plates? And not Billy Bob's Garage Spec parts either, but decent names like the Bilstein B16. I would think that the top mount would be a somewhat integral part of a coilover.

They're designed to reuse the OEM stuff. Most people in the market for non-adjustable dampers are not looking to adjust their camber. It also brings the price point down a lot (this is why the KW V3 doesn't include them)

Raceseng makes a very nice camber plate for the Bilsteins, if you need camber adjustability.