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Old 01-14-2016, 01:47 PM   #15
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As mentioned by @DAEMANO, I don't agree that RR Racing choosing not to respond with simple specifications indicates that they have something to hide. I can't find any publicly released piston sizing information for the APs kits with a quick forum or Google search either although I'm sure you'd be happy to release that info to anyone who asks for it. For the sake of disseminating information, I will comment on the RR Racing sport performance (4 pot) front BBK because I bought one.

When I first got the kit (a few weeks ago now) I measured the pistons and recall they were ~38mm based on my eye and a crappy school book ruler. The rest of the relevant info is available on their website so I stuck the values in a torque calculator and came out with a slightly higher torque value with the RR Racing front kit than stock. I did this a while ago so I don't remember the exact values but my point was that Rafi mentioned this was the case so I can confirm he never said anything misleading or incorrect.

I realize it seems the real issue CSG and JRitt have is the claim that increasing rear bias is beneficial when their own findings indicated that wasn't the case and are looking for data from RR Racing to back their claim up. I'm not going to lie here, I DO think the rear kits are primarily superficial especially for cars with no rear downforce so I have no plans on getting one.

In the end, I'm of the opinion that AP's caliper and rotors are the best so if you want the best, you need to pay the extra to go with AP. In my case, I'd love to get an AP kit but the reality is that I cannot pay for it now or in the forseeable future. If an affordable alternative never appeared, I'd never be able to upgrade. Suggesting that I save up for it isn't helpful because I'm also saving for a house and every dollar spent on something else is a dollar that doesn't go into the house. This is why I look for products that are 70% of the high end product for 50% of the cost and RR Racing has released an offering that appears to be in this range, targeting people like me.
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by IPGJames View Post
This.

And this is why I will continue to sell and support specialists at what they do...when i want a brake kit I buy brakes from a brake company...when I buy valvetrain I buy valvetrain from a valvetrain company...when i want wheels i buy wheels from an actual wheel manufacturer, etc, etc....

dealing with the specialist gets you right to the point...it is what they do...it isn't what they want to slap their name on and try to sell today.

this is coming from 15 years of direct market experience..i have seen quite a lot come and go.
For clarity, both AP & Wilwood make the major braking components in discussion, not Essex or RR. Both Essex and RR produce integrations/configurations (kits) made with those parts. Stillen also produces an AP kit. Essex sells many other parts not related to braking, as does RR Racing and Stillen. None are "specialists" in the way you seem to have defined them above. Although all have done an admirable job.

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What?

He asked a question..I don't care if he is a customer, distributor or the Prince of Monaco....either an answer is known or not.

I have no idea what thread you guys are even referring to but I do know if you want to promote and market a product you better be ready to answer any and all questions regardless of where they come from.
Folksy and tough sounding. Can you clarify, when you say "you" who are you speaking of?

More importantly though, generally speaking vendors should keep from commenting on other vendors products in their respective threads to prevent flame wars, F.U.D., etc from starting up. People/vendors sometimes do have intent behind the timing and location of their questions. If not, sometimes the conversation can become that.

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Old 01-14-2016, 02:21 PM   #17
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How dare you ask a question about my product....

My head hurts...I am going back to under my rock...I let my guard down and attempted to participate in the community but thankfully you have made me realized why I don't.
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:34 PM   #18
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Yikes...breathe everyone. Please keep in mind that all of these things are First World Problems! I wanted to know an answer to a question. I tried to find that answer on my own, but couldn't. I therefore asked the question. It felt pretty straightforward to me. Maybe I shouldn't have? It seemed fairly basic and benign to me at the time.

I wasn't implying anything bad about RR's website, that they have a brake bias conspiracy going on, or that they're bad people who are preying upon their customers. To my knowledge, I have yet to say a single negative word about anything related to them. I'm not trying to pick on them, or anyone else in the brake business. I have friends who work at or sell StopTech, Brembo, Race Technologies, PFC, etc. We all visit each other at trade shows, go out to dinner, email each other, etc. It's all a pretty friendly atmosphere (as is most of the aftermarket). Also, many of the people who work at these companies have worked at one or more of the others. I was the Sales Mgr. at StopTech for years, we have a former PFC employee here, one from Wilwood, etc.

I also have nothing against "the little guy," "the new guy," etc. When I started at StopTech in 2003, we had about 10 employees. We were going up against all of the big boys with a completely unknown brand, a handful of brake kits, and very little budget. I've been there, and it wasn't easy.

When I post something about our products in a technical forum, my expectation is that people are going to ask me every reasonable and ridiculously unreasonable question under the sun about that product (for the record, my all-time favorite is, "Which stops better, red or black calipers?"...yes, someone really asked me that once ). That's okay though, because that's why people are here...to learn about something with which they are unfamiliar.

As I said in my last post, I don't think one product is right for every person or situation. That's why we sell different types of brake kits, brake pads, etc.

Thanks for the kind words about our products and customer service. We bust our butts to do our best. I don't get to visit this forum as often as I'd like, because we are involved in so many markets. I do my best to help people when I do make it here though.

Oh...for reference, if you click on the technical specifications tab on our product page and scroll down, the piston bores and other specs are there. It's going to look like a mess due to HTML tables issues posting here, but here it is:

Caliper
CP8350-2S4L/3S4L

Weight no Pads
4.8 lbs.

Piston Sizes
38.1mm x 2

41.3mm x 2

Piston Area
49.56cm^2

Inlet Thread
M10x1.0

Mounting Type
Radial

Mtg. Centers
152mm

Mtg. Offset
44mm

Pad thickness
20mm
15mm

Disc
CP3862-104/105GA

Type
2-piece bolted

Weight
10.71 lbs.
Diameter
299mm
Thickness
32mm
Radial Depth
43mm

No. of Vanes
60
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Lynxis View Post
As mentioned by @DAEMANO, I don't agree that RR Racing choosing not to respond with simple specifications indicates that they have something to hide. I can't find any publicly released piston sizing information for the APs kits with a quick forum or Google search either although I'm sure you'd be happy to release that info to anyone who asks for it. For the sake of disseminating information, I will comment on the RR Racing sport performance (4 pot) front BBK because I bought one.

When I first got the kit (a few weeks ago now) I measured the pistons and recall they were ~38mm based on my eye and a crappy school book ruler. The rest of the relevant info is available on their website so I stuck the values in a torque calculator and came out with a slightly higher torque value with the RR Racing front kit than stock. I did this a while ago so I don't remember the exact values but my point was that Rafi mentioned this was the case so I can confirm he never said anything misleading or incorrect.

I realize it seems the real issue CSG and JRitt have is the claim that increasing rear bias is beneficial when their own findings indicated that wasn't the case and are looking for data from RR Racing to back their claim up. I'm not going to lie here, I DO think the rear kits are primarily superficial especially for cars with no rear downforce so I have no plans on getting one.

In the end, I'm of the opinion that AP's caliper and rotors are the best so if you want the best, you need to pay the extra to go with AP. In my case, I'd love to get an AP kit but the reality is that I cannot pay for it now or in the forseeable future. If an affordable alternative never appeared, I'd never be able to upgrade. Suggesting that I save up for it isn't helpful because I'm also saving for a house and every dollar spent on something else is a dollar that doesn't go into the house. This is why I look for products that are 70% of the high end product for 50% of the cost and RR Racing has released an offering that appears to be in this range, targeting people like me.
Actually, that would be the AP. Ironically the math is almost perfect, in my example below, using crude calculations

My kit of choice is a Brembo front, but that costs $3895 retail. The AP Sprint is $2099 retail, and gets the job done just as well for 90% of the people out there. For those running full slicks, and/or are boosted and/or want the best and/or will only run forged wheels, the Brembo *is* the superior product.

The AP is, hands down, the best bang for the buck (especially when you consider longevity and the cost of upkeep with heavy duty use), and that's why the CSG car runs the Essex AP kit. The cost is brought down by using a genuine racing product, that is acceptable for street use in a variety (but not all) conditions. Because there is no fancy paint (which burns off), dust boots that will burn off under hard use anyways, and a lot of common components (e.g. pads), the cost is brought down, while maintaining top notch quality.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:11 PM   #20
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For the record, I quickly scanned back through the RR thread and found our products mentioned in posts #34, 35, 36, 61, 82, 205, and 208. Some of those posts called for a direct comparo to our product. There were also some inaccurate posts about NASCAR discs, which is one of our core markets. I never commented on any of those items. All I asked about was clarification on a technical point to answer a customer question. I feel like I've been showing rather solid restraint.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DAEMANO View Post
For clarity, both AP & Wilwood make the major braking components in discussion, not Essex or RR. Both Essex and RR produce integrations/configurations (kits) made with those parts. Stillen also produces an AP kit. Essex sells many other parts not related to braking, as does RR Racing and Stillen. None are "specialists" in the way you seem to have defined them above. Although all have done an admirable job.
I would consider Essex a brake specialist.

They have specialized equipment that many, many major brands "rent out" or buy time on.

Sure, they sell some other things, but Brakes are their primary market. @JRitt has been in the brake industry for how long now?
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:18 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Actually, that would be the AP.

My kit of choice is a Brembo front, but that costs $3895 retail. The AP Sprint is $2099 retail, and gets the job done just as well for 90% of the people out there. For those running full slicks, and/or are boosted and/or want the best and/or will only run forged wheels, the Brembo *is* the superior product.
F@*K you CSG! Brembo is cheap Italian junk. I think you are anti-Anglo-Saxon racists (***sneaking off to jump in my Brembo-equipped daily driver***).

Now that's how you handle competitors on the web.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:20 PM   #23
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NSFW....






































brake porn

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Old 01-14-2016, 04:23 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
I would consider Essex a brake specialist.

They have specialized equipment that many, many major brands "rent out" or buy time on.

Sure, they sell some other things, but Brakes are their primary market. @JRitt has been in the brake industry for how long now?

This was in reference to @IPGJames definition. Following his example below, I'd never buy TSG wheels from CSG because you guys don't make the wheels (obviously that doesn't make a lot of sense). Certainly a company that performs thorough 2nd hand R&D for their integrations and also supports their customers is worthy of a purchase whether they're 1st or 3rd party.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IPGJames View Post
This.

And this is why I will continue to sell and support specialists at what they do...when i want a brake kit I buy brakes from a brake company...when I buy valvetrain I buy valvetrain from a valvetrain company...when i want wheels i buy wheels from an actual wheel manufacturer, etc, etc....

dealing with the specialist gets you right to the point...it is what they do...it isn't what they want to slap their name on and try to sell today.

this is coming from 15 years of direct market experience..i have seen quite a lot come and go.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:26 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Lynxis View Post
As mentioned by @DAEMANO, I don't agree that RR Racing choosing not to respond with simple specifications indicates that they have something to hide. I can't find any publicly released piston sizing information for the APs kits with a quick forum or Google search either although I'm sure you'd be happy to release that info to anyone who asks for it. For the sake of disseminating information, I will comment on the RR Racing sport performance (4 pot) front BBK because I bought one.

When I first got the kit (a few weeks ago now) I measured the pistons and recall they were ~38mm based on my eye and a crappy school book ruler. The rest of the relevant info is available on their website so I stuck the values in a torque calculator and came out with a slightly higher torque value with the RR Racing front kit than stock. I did this a while ago so I don't remember the exact values but my point was that Rafi mentioned this was the case so I can confirm he never said anything misleading or incorrect.

I realize it seems the real issue CSG and JRitt have is the claim that increasing rear bias is beneficial when their own findings indicated that wasn't the case and are looking for data from RR Racing to back their claim up. I'm not going to lie here, I DO think the rear kits are primarily superficial especially for cars with no rear downforce so I have no plans on getting one.

In the end, I'm of the opinion that AP's caliper and rotors are the best so if you want the best, you need to pay the extra to go with AP. In my case, I'd love to get an AP kit but the reality is that I cannot pay for it now or in the forseeable future. If an affordable alternative never appeared, I'd never be able to upgrade. Suggesting that I save up for it isn't helpful because I'm also saving for a house and every dollar spent on something else is a dollar that doesn't go into the house. This is why I look for products that are 70% of the high end product for 50% of the cost and RR Racing has released an offering that appears to be in this range, targeting people like me.
Please let us know how your purchase pans out. Looking for inputs from mostly a durability/reliability perspective since this is marketed as a dual purpose "sport" kit by RR.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
I would consider Essex a brake specialist.

They have specialized equipment that many, many major brands "rent out" or buy time on.

Sure, they sell some other things, but Brakes are their primary market. @JRitt has been in the brake industry for how long now?
Essex has been in business for over 30 years, and the bulk of our business is brakes. We do a few other small things, but we have about 25 full-time people almost solely focused on brakes. We sell directly to NASCAR Sprint Cup teams, IMSA teams, IndyCar, World Challenge, etc. We have a brake dyno, brake burnishing machines, caliper re-certification center, etc. Since graduating evil medical school, aftermarket brakes is pretty much what I've been doing all day, every day for the past 13 years. You can watch our company overview video here (please excuse the fact that I look like a zombie in the vid...it was bad lighting!).

Okay, at this point I have to officially apologize for the thread-jacking. Sorry to the OP. I owe you a beer or three if we ever meet in person.
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Actually, that would be the AP. Ironically the math is almost perfect, in my example below, using crude calculations

My kit of choice is a Brembo front, but that costs $3895 retail. The AP Sprint is $2099 retail, and gets the job done just as well for 90% of the people out there. For those running full slicks, and/or are boosted and/or want the best and/or will only run forged wheels, the Brembo *is* the superior product.

The AP is, hands down, the best bang for the buck (especially when you consider longevity and the cost of upkeep with heavy duty use), and that's why the CSG car runs the Essex AP kit. The cost is brought down by using a genuine racing product, that is acceptable for street use in a variety (but not all) conditions. Because there is no fancy paint (which burns off), dust boots that will burn off under hard use anyways, and a lot of common components (e.g. pads), the cost is brought down, while maintaining top notch quality.
Definitely see what you're saying here. As someone who covets the AP kits, I think Brembos are just ridiculous so I don't even look at them. Instead of saying "best" I should have said "high end." The falling CAD makes things even worse for me, my RR Racing kit was $1150CAD and now looking at over 3k for the AP Sprint kit just isn't happening in the foreseeable future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAEMANO View Post
Please let us know how your purchase pans out. Looking for inputs from mostly a durability/reliability perspective since this is marketed as a dual purpose "sport" kit by RR.
For sure! They won't go on the car until April but once I've done some driving on them, I'll do a full detailed review. I'm not too worried, they use Wilwood calipers and Stoptech rotors which both have good reputations. My only concern about the kit itself is that Rafi mentioned there might be uneven taper wear on the pads because it doesn't use staggered pistons.

I'm more concerned about the pads themselves. Wilwood BP10 are known to wear really fast when hot and EBC Yellowstuff has a few reports of the compound falling apart under track use. I found a thread on another forum where someone asked EBC about the reports of the pads falling apart and they said to make sure you use same pads front and rear and stressed to properly bed them so I'll be making it a point to do this and monitor them closely. I'll report my findings when it happens.
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Old 01-15-2016, 12:51 PM   #28
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Sorry for being so absent, we've been a bit busy.

First, we want to be clear that we have no problems with the AP kit at all. We run a version on our shop WRX currently and we tested the enduro car on it as well as the hyper blue brz we have. Second, if the OP seems one sided it's because we just thought the info on the AP brakes have been discussed many times and we didn't think we needed to reiterate it. We wanted this to spark a conversation about the different set ups, but absolutely not in any negative way. We think the AP kit does what it does extremely well, no one is arguing that. From what we see with our customers it appears to be the most popular and well regarded bbk out right now. The goal here was to show people another viable option whether it be for street or track or a show car.

Second, it is a pretty bare bones OP because we were excited to just let people know about the new RR stuff. Cost analysis of repeated track days will be studied and any technical data we have will be posted....As soon as it warms up and we can get some track time.

With that said, during testing of the enduro car last year our drivers didn't quite like the AP racing kit. They felt the kit was a tad bit too front bias. We decided to adjust accordingly with a kit we saw as better balanced. With the drivers running nearly 3 hour stints it's important to keep our drivers input at the forefront. Now, we did NOT run the sport performance kit during our race at VIR. We ran the Stage IV kit front and rear, and nine hours into the race they were still perfect and we were doing well....then we got bumped off. The point is RR makes quality stuff too, and we think everyone should know that.

One thing we always keep in mind is that not everyone is into the same car based hobby. Some people like stance, some like racing or HPDE, some like daily driving a cool looking car. We just want to hopefully provide info for all those crowds.

Again, the initial comparison was made for cars that would be mostly daily driven with occasional track use. A comparison of what is considered the best option on the market vs a budget friendly kit. A more apples to apples comparison is the RR racing stage IV vs the AP racing. And after 9 hours of wheel to wheel racing and multiple test days, we think the RR rotors will be good for at least two seasons worth of track days.

That was a lot...haha hopefully this clears some things up!

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