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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 05-10-2013, 04:24 AM   #169
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Why did they used the cheapy FRS rather than the BRZ or the jap/euro 86?
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:26 AM   #170
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Seeing threads where it looks like headers + intake exhaust tune appear to be required to best case give~25hp.

If those mods give 30 hp, BRZ might be as fast as a stock s2000. IF. MIGHT be.


Show me trap speeds over 100mph after these exact mods.
Not saying it isn't possible. Just seems optimistic. That's all.
Swift996 recently dynoed his car on 5th of may, got 25whp on Unichip tune, fa20club header and AEM intake, whilst running very rich in his AFR. He says if the AFR was leaner, he would of squeezed a couple more WHP.

Adding a headerback exhaust into the mix on swift's brz will surely put it at 30whp. Dont you agree? Or would a headerback exhaust yield zero gains?

Im not judging on trap speeds. Im judging on power to weight ratio of a bolt on BRZ vs a stock s2000. But thanks for clarifying my point once again. A lightly modded BRZ will be just as fast as a stock s2000. If you get the same driver, clone that person, put one in the BRZ, put one on the s2000, they will be as fast as each other.
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:03 AM   #171
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There's no reason to doubt that if they'd noticed it, they would have commented, but for the type of driving they were doing it was a non-issue. No problem keeping the S2000 and RX8 on the boil with their much higher redlines vs. FR-S. For stoplight/stoplight in-town driving, it would be more of an issue, but in that environment most reasonable people are less likely to be doing any "high-performance" driving, anyway. For sure there are better stoplight/stoplight cars than these...


Because the test wasn't about that, it was about driving enjoyment, which car did they have more fun driving. Obviously if mileage is important, that should be taken into account by anyone comparing the cars, but I would hate to see this kind of comparison end with "but we'll go with the FR-S because it gets better mileage."
I thought that FRS and RX8 is equally fast when you do "high performance" driving?? So why criticize only FRS? S2000 is fastest for sure.

And i mentioned gas mileage (and emissions) cos they killed these two other cars. When you drive FRS you have to remember that this car is made to meet those new emission standards. It's quite remarkable thing that you can have that kind of engine (and car of course ) with 25t $. There is a reason why honda and mazda doesn't manufacture those engines/cars anymore...

Is it a little unfair to compare new car against used cars which were much more expensive when new, and that time when they were on the market emission standards were much lower and so on? Maybe so, but life is unfair. I would everytime pick Boxster over S2000, but i need 2+2 coupe so for me instead of rx8 i would choose GT86 or 996 Carrera

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Old 05-10-2013, 08:06 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by CSI:86 View Post
Swift996 recently dynoed his car on 5th of may, got 25whp on Unichip tune, fa20club header and AEM intake, whilst running very rich in his AFR. He says if the AFR was leaner, he would of squeezed a couple more WHP.
25rwhp vs. what? A/B/A testing of the same car on the same dyno on the same day at the same time, with zero changes in the dyno setup? What exactly did it pull before and after?

You can't take +25rwhp as an absolute fact. It is an indication, but you can't expect even +/-5hp resolution.

Quote:
Adding a headerback exhaust into the mix on swift's brz will surely put it at 30whp. Dont you agree? Or would a headerback exhaust yield zero gains?
It is possible. Tons of people have put exhausts on S2000s that lost them hp.

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Im not judging on trap speeds. Im judging on power to weight ratio of a bolt on BRZ vs a stock s2000.
I don't put that much absolute faith in dyno numbers, particularly under different conditions with different correction factors. If said modded car does 100 in the 1/4, that says a lot more to me.

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But thanks for clarifying my point once again. A lightly modded BRZ will be just as fast as a stock s2000. If you get the same driver, clone that person, put one in the BRZ, put one on the s2000, they will be as fast as each other.
That seems a lot more complicated than just letting the same driver test both cars....
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:01 AM   #173
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The RX-8 is just not a comparison, with that gas guzzling short lived rotary it might as well be from Mars, its no longer being sold for good reason, not worth the head ache for most people, time is money. The RX8 had many many hidden costs of ownership. If you can afford that sort of luxury in time and money great, but we shouldn't be comparing it to a new $25k Toyota.

The S2k is only being compared at used prices, that is a testament to Honda's pinnacle of building reliable transportation that we would even consider a 10 year old car with 75k+ miles as being competitive to a brand new car.

Surely we are not so lacking in confidence in Toyota/Subaru reliability that we would consider buying a used car of unknown care ? I'm kidding here a bit, but have you ever been cheated by a used car sale's man? I'm still kicking myself for not buying a co-workers AP1 for $15k four years ago during the banking crisis, but no way I'm spending $20k+ on a used car of unknown origin now days, you just never know if the previous owner was a dillweed.

Obviously the FR-S isn't any where near the high price bracket as when the S2k was new. The fact that the FR-S is competitive with the S2k 10 years later for basically half the price (considering inflation) is quite remarkable! And it is a much more practical daily driver.

@ CSG Mike, I hope your engine problems are isolated. Can you share the details of what components failed ?
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:27 AM   #174
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You know I dont thin kanyone has mentioned this....What tires were on the three cars? I highly doubt they were the same....I dont think they mentioned it in the video. Did they?
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:00 AM   #175
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You know I dont thin kanyone has mentioned this....What tires were on the three cars? I highly doubt they were the same....I dont think they mentioned it in the video. Did they?
They didn't mention tires as I recall, and that's a good point. The S2000, for one, is sensitive to tire pressures in a way that is unlike any other car I've ever driven. It also handles completely unlike their description if it's sitting on 300 treadwear tires that aren't a matched set. (replace the rears at a different time than the fronts, happens all the time with those cars.)
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:07 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Lasse View Post
...Is it a little unfair to compare new car against used cars which were much more expensive when new, and that time when they were on the market emission standards were much lower and so on? Maybe so, but life is unfair. I would everytime pick Boxster over S2000, but i need 2+2 coupe so for me instead of rx8 i would choose GT86 or 996 Carrera
Most of your comments are spot on. I just want to make a point that the RX-8 is a true sedan. It's possible to fit two adults back there and not inconvenience the driver or co-pilot. Also the GT trim was pretty sweet but it was a $30k+ car at that point.

It's ironic that the car with a more practical body style gets passed over as a DD because it has the completely impractical Rotary.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:11 AM   #177
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The RX-8 is just not a comparison, with that gas guzzling short lived rotary it might as well be from Mars, its no longer being sold for good reason, not worth the head ache for most people, time is money. The RX8 had many many hidden costs of ownership. If you can afford that sort of luxury in time and money great, but we shouldn't be comparing it to a new $25k Toyota.
Rotaries can and do last a long time when they are properly maintained. I have owned three of them, and all of them went over 100-120K miles and were sold while they were still running fine. The key is maintenance. They drink a lot of oil. But oil is cheap. If you are somebody who does not properly maintain your car, the RX-8 is not for you and can get very expensive. They also get really poor gas mileage when aggressively driven, but they are also a blast and are some of the smoothest engines out there. I would not hesitate to buy an RX-8 if it had been properly maintained. It also had a very useable backseat.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:32 AM   #178
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Rotaries can and do last a long time when they are properly maintained. I have owned three of them, and all of them went over 100-120K miles and were sold while they were still running fine. The key is maintenance. They drink a lot of oil. But oil is cheap. If you are somebody who does not properly maintain your car, the RX-8 is not for you and can get very expensive. They also get really poor gas mileage when aggressively driven, but they are also a blast and are some of the smoothest engines out there. I would not hesitate to buy an RX-8 if it had been properly maintained. It also had a very useable backseat.
Oh I think the Rotaries are cool as heck but maintenance time is money. On my way to work check the oil every time I fill-up, ain't going to happen. Most people will invariably run them low on oil and blow the motor, would never trust a used one. And really the last 25 years we consumers expect a new Japanese engine to last at least 200k miles.

Spending $25K on the FR-S I will be sorely disappointed if I don't get 200k out of the engine. And I mean not burning/drinking/leaking oil at 200k. My Honda Civic Vtech made it that long , my current grocery getter Yaris has many reports of 400k+ miles with their solid engines. People buying cars in this price range expect that sort of worry-free reliability from the Japanese.

Its the bigger reason people are comparing a new FR-S to 10 year old Honda S2k's, bullet proof Japanese reliability. Miatas engines repeatedly live a very long hard life. Its just an expectation. And without that I think it takes the RX-8 especially a used one off most everyone's list. Resale is really bad too.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:06 PM   #179
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Oh I think the Rotaries are cool as heck but maintenance time is money. On my way to work check the oil every time I fill-up, ain't going to happen. Most people will invariably run them low on oil and blow the motor, would never trust a used one. And really the last 25 years we consumers expect a new Japanese engine to last at least 200k miles.

Spending $25K on the FR-S I will be sorely disappointed if I don't get 200k out of the engine. And I mean not burning/drinking/leaking oil at 200k. My Honda Civic Vtech made it that long , my current grocery getter Yaris has many reports of 400k+ miles with their solid engines. People buying cars in this price range expect that sort of worry-free reliability from the Japanese.

Its the bigger reason people are comparing a new FR-S to 10 year old Honda S2k's, bullet proof Japanese reliability. Miatas engines repeatedly live a very long hard life. Its just an expectation. And without that I think it takes the RX-8 especially a used one off most everyone's list. Resale is really bad too.
The rotary is not for everyone, that is for sure. I don't think we will see another one in a Mazda sports car unless they can overcome the gas/oil burning which I believe they are working on. I would love to see a more dependable rotary and there is rumors of just this in a new RX sports car. My turbo RX-7 that I previously owned is probably the most fun car I have ever owned. I regretted selling it the moment the buyer picked it up.. And, the more competition the better I would love to see Honda rekindle what made the S2000 so great and raise the bar again. I also would love to see about 40-60+ more horsepower and some more torque from the FR-S/BRZ twins. It was the big thing holding me back on buying one.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:21 PM   #180
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It's ironic that the car with a more practical body style gets passed over as a DD because it has the completely impractical Rotary.
Haha now that you mention it, that is a bit ironic.

I do think one of the reasons the FR-S and BRZ are selling so well is that they're comparable to the S2000 and RX-8, but without the practicality issues. Unlike the S2000, they have a hard top and rear seats. And unlike the RX-8, they get good gas mileage, don't consume oil, and have fairly robust engines (although only time will tell).

All this while being lighter, significantly cheaper, and acing modern crash safety standards. Not bad.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:44 PM   #181
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Oh I think the Rotaries are cool as heck but maintenance time is money. On my way to work check the oil every time I fill-up, ain't going to happen. Most people will invariably run them low on oil and blow the motor, would never trust a used one. And really the last 25 years we consumers expect a new Japanese engine to last at least 200k miles.

Spending $25K on the FR-S I will be sorely disappointed if I don't get 200k out of the engine. And I mean not burning/drinking/leaking oil at 200k. My Honda Civic Vtech made it that long , my current grocery getter Yaris has many reports of 400k+ miles with their solid engines. People buying cars in this price range expect that sort of worry-free reliability from the Japanese.

Its the bigger reason people are comparing a new FR-S to 10 year old Honda S2k's, bullet proof Japanese reliability. Miatas engines repeatedly live a very long hard life. Its just an expectation. And without that I think it takes the RX-8 especially a used one off most everyone's list. Resale is really bad too.
FYI the BRZ/FRS owner's manual tells you to check the engine oil level at every fuel fill up (as do manuals for just about every car).

And for Pete's sake man, it's VTEC!!! What's with the damn h?
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:48 PM   #182
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Rotaries can and do last a long time when they are properly maintained. I have owned three of them, and all of them went over 100-120K miles and were sold while they were still running fine.
And my perfectly maintained rotary ran fine up until it blew 2 apex seals at 105k miles.

Quote:
The key is maintenance.
Perfectly maintained, they will still have way less than half the expected lifetime of a decent piston engine.

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They also get really poor gas mileage when aggressively driven,
And they get really poor gas mileage when driven sedately.

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but they are also a blast and are some of the smoothest engines out there. I would not hesitate to buy an RX-8 if it had been properly maintained. It also had a very useable backseat.
I love the cars, but it would have to be a pristine, low-mileage example at a rock-bottom price for me to bite.

Word has it that they aren't able to inject enough oil to ensure longevity/reliability and still meet emissions. Running premix *might* allow these engines to live a bit longer. Also there are reports that running the Mazda specified 20wt oil doesn't adequately protect the engine, and that 30wt is a much better bet.

In any case, these engines are inherently very short-lived relative to piston engines, and inherently get crap fuel mileage.

Sweet cars, though...
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