June 11th - SPDA/ATTS Lapping - CTMP DDT

[Frost]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Re-classed for what? OTA doesn't care what size the wheels are as long as they fit under the fenders without flares. Autocross has a limit of 9" wide wheels for ST classes (I think you're STU?).

If you have to go outside the factory camber spec to get the wider wheels under the fender, OTA will ding you 1 pip for a non-factory spec alignment.

Autocross: I'm was supposed to be in BS but if I square up with larger wheel widths than stocks in the front, I move to STR. I don't see a point in me getting nice rubber with the stock setup so I'm planning on squaring up with good rubber next year. That means I'll be in STR.

I didn't know OTA didn't care for the wheel sizes so long as flares aren't required. I figured autocross rules would somewhat apply. Interesting. I'm definitely sticking to factory equipment for alignments - not worth it unless I go heavier on mods.

[wparsons]

99% sure you're limited to 9" wheels in STR on RWD cars.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by wparsons

99% sure you're limited to 9" wheels in STR on RWD cars.

Didn't know about the 9" limit - I was speaking to Barry but not sure if he realized I was planning 17x10s.

Either way, I'm set on the 17x9s from 949 Racing since they will clear the Essex AP Racing BBK down the road so I'm set to stay in STR.

[wparsons]

Post up in the CASC-OR autoslalom FB group, he'll answer pretty quick!

[Skurj]

Originally Posted by Frost

Autocross: I'm was supposed to be in BS but if I square up with larger wheel widths than stocks in the front, I move to STR. I don't see a point in me getting nice rubber with the stock setup so I'm planning on squaring up with good rubber next year. That means I'll be in STR.

I didn't know OTA didn't care for the wheel sizes so long as flares aren't required. I figured autocross rules would somewhat apply. Interesting. I'm definitely sticking to factory equipment for alignments - not worth it unless I go heavier on mods.

sadly classing rules do not cross over from autox to ota, AutoX in that regard abit more lenient. single adjustable shocks still sit in stock in autox but add pips in OTA.

Its up to you.. for AutoX if you want to go to STR.. and want to be competitive .. optimize.. if you can't do that, stay with stock, pax is in your favour..

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Skurj

sadly classing rules do not cross over from autox to ota, AutoX in that regard abit more lenient. single adjustable shocks still sit in stock in autox but add pips in OTA.

Its up to you.. for AutoX if you want to go to STR.. and want to be competitive .. optimize.. if you can't do that, stay with stock, pax is in your favour..

For me the biggest problem is that I don't just use my car for autoX and track days. I use it to cruise, scoot around when the weather is good, etc.

This means my regular tire is something like the Michelin Pilot Super Sports which are GREAT road tires but I've found that at autoX and track, they are holding me back from hitting top 5 in a few events. I've managed to acquire enough data this year that the PSS have a severe drop off in my competitiveness when the courses get very quick. When I'm up against guys with 'streetable' track tires like the Star Specs or RS3s, I get blown out the door. Put on a much more technical and overall slower course, I'm suddenly in the top 10. I'm not slow but I haven't been able to prove I'm quick either.

So the plan for me is to get a second set of tires. The issue here becomes, do I get OEM sizes? Since this second set for me is to do the best I can possibly do, I'm going to have to square up and also plan ahead for a BBK eventually.

That's what lead me to getting the 6ULs in the 17x9 configuration and then slapping on some decent track tires.

Am I wrong here? Genuine question. Been wrestling with this thought the entire year now.

[infinity21]

For what it's worth, my RS3 (1:40.55) are only 1 second faster than @sergiomordo around DDT 2 kink who has MPSS (1:41.5). I'm not sure what the time differences are for your competition but just have fun and focus on improving as a driver. My 2 cents.

[wparsons]

I truly daily my car on EHP tires, zero issues. I got almost two full summers and about a dozen track days out of my Dunlop ZII's (RS3's went on in September). RS3's lasted a year, with about a dozen track days. My AD08R's have been on since last September and have about 5 track days on them and look almost brand new.

I don't think you'll get significantly longer life out of MPSS than an AD08R or RS3, especially if you're overheating the MPSS.

That said, if you're more competitive on some courses, that's probably more your comfort level than the tires (unless you're comparing asphalt to concrete, then compound matters). If you really want to test out if it's the tires or you, get someone you trust to take your car for a run and see if they're significantly faster than you or not. I put someone else in my car, and his first run in the car ever was 1.5 seconds faster than me, his second run was another second faster. Sure, he's the national champion in his class and has placed in the top 6 in the US nationals, but that's still a big gap!

[Frost]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I truly daily my car on EHP tires, zero issues. I got almost two full summers and about a dozen track days out of my Dunlop ZII's (RS3's went on in September). RS3's lasted a year, with about a dozen track days. My AD08R's have been on since last September and have about 5 track days on them and look almost brand new.

I don't think you'll get significantly longer life out of MPSS than an AD08R or RS3, especially if you're overheating the MPSS.

That said, if you're more competitive on some courses, that's probably more your comfort level than the tires (unless you're comparing asphalt to concrete, then compound matters). If you really want to test out if it's the tires or you, get someone you trust to take your car for a run and see if they're significantly faster than you or not. I put someone else in my car, and his first run in the car ever was 1.5 seconds faster than me, his second run was another second faster. Sure, he's the national champion in his class and has placed in the top 6 in the US nationals, but that's still a big gap!

I should mention that I am strictly talking about autocross for this year - no track events since... well, you know why

I've considered getting someone else driving my car - I did it last year and he showed me a lot and that's part of the reason why I'm so much quicker this year (plus last year was literally me having less than half a season of seat time in the car).

The problem with me is that now I actually AM the fastest guy in an S2000 for my setup. There were a couple of guys running Star Specs IIs and RS3s but the former is a competitor in the same class so technically, he won't be allowed to drive my car and the latter has a tune, coilovers and I was still beating him so I'm not sure what I could learn there. The former is also usually just beating me by roughly 0.0xx seconds so I'm RIGHT up there with him as well (except for the last event which was MUCH faster and I got blown out).

I'm keeping the MPSSes for the 5500km trek I'm doing in October so I realize this season is a write off for me winning my PITL autocross class.

I don't want to change the car without being absolutely sure I'm hitting limits so that's why I'm so hesitant.

[wparsons]

Not just another S2000 driver, one of the fastest guys. If you go to a regional event, someone like Mike A, Daniel F, Val D, Steve J D, etc.

The difference in grip shouldn't change drastically from a tight technical course to a wide open course. If a given tire is 10% (made up number) slower, it should still be 10% slower on a more open course. If I had to bet, I would say you're coming much closer to 100% of the capabilities of the car on the more technical courses, but are leaving time on the table on the faster ones.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Not just another S2000 driver, one of the fastest guys. If you go to a regional event, someone like Mike A, Daniel F, Val D, Steve J D, etc.

The difference in grip shouldn't change drastically from a tight technical course to a wide open course. If a given tire is 10% (made up number) slower, it should still be 10% slower on a more open course. If I had to bet, I would say you're coming much closer to 100% of the capabilities of the car on the more technical courses, but are leaving time on the table on the faster ones.

Good point tho I'm not sure how I'll squeeze Yang, Val, etc. into the runs. I'll talk to them this weekend.

[Skurj]

I keep errm well 4 sets of wheels and tires for the BRZ, if you include the winters, 2 sets with re71's mounted on stock sized wheels and a set with oem tires. I am focusing on autoX this year. The issue came from trying to compete in OTA as well. for OTA I could run a 9" wheel, but that moved me up to STX for autox. As I couldn't afford to optimize for STX in AutoX (~6-10k$) it just wasn't worth it, or at least within current financial reach. As it turns out, aiming for street class has found me more competitive overall, and cheaper to optimize. Not quite as fast granted, and perhaps not as 'cool' looking.

I am considering saving the pennies to go STX.. but when it comes to cars i change my mind almost as often as i change my socks...

Will add.. my JCW is on MPSS, I think they are a good all arounder, though only done a lot of 400 series, and one AutoX on them so far, may get out to the Sept 10 day with it though.

[wparsons]

Martyn makes a good point... just running 9" wheels with sticky tires is going to put you at a big disadvantage in STR. It might be better to stay on stock size wheels unless you're ready to also buy good coilovers, possibly sway bars, aggressive alignment, etc.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Skurj

I keep errm well 4 sets of wheels and tires for the BRZ, if you include the winters, 2 sets with re71's mounted on stock sized wheels and a set with oem tires. I am focusing on autoX this year. The issue came from trying to compete in OTA as well. for OTA I could run a 9" wheel, but that moved me up to STX for autox. As I couldn't afford to optimize for STX in AutoX (~6-10k$) it just wasn't worth it, or at least within current financial reach. As it turns out, aiming for street class has found me more competitive overall, and cheaper to optimize. Not quite as fast granted, and perhaps not as 'cool' looking.

I am considering saving the pennies to go STX.. but when it comes to cars i change my mind almost as often as i change my socks...

Will add.. my JCW is on MPSS, I think they are a good all arounder, though only done a lot of 400 series, and one AutoX on them so far, may get out to the Sept 10 day with it though.

I don't care for cool looking. I just want to get over the annoying stagger Honda put into the car without blowing my annual budget.

Originally Posted by wparsons

Martyn makes a good point... just running 9" wheels with sticky tires is going to put you at a big disadvantage in STR. It might be better to stay on stock size wheels unless you're ready to also buy good coilovers, possibly sway bars, aggressive alignment, etc.

Both of you make excellent valid points about optimization. I might wind up holding off on the tire trailer and just slapping on RE71Rs onto the OEM wheels. I really don't want to get new wheels without squaring up - I don't really see a point. In that vein, if I do square up, I would definitely get a stiffer front sway bar to counter the oversteer I'd get. Coilovers will have to wait. Honda put on some REALLY good suspension from the factory and I don't see the return on investment for my skill level right off the bat.

I've already got as aggressive of an alignment as I could with OEM hardware so we can see next year if my driving improves. On the plus side, the money I was going to spend on a tire trailer can now be spent on the roll bar!

Decisions, decisions.

Thanks for the advice guys.