Low grip skinny tires

[hippari]

So you want to feel like you're driving fast while going as slow as possible?

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by hippari

So you want to feel like you're driving fast while going as slow as possible?

hardparkers will never understand

[hippari]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

hardparkers will never understand

What are you implying by that, do I gotta authorize my hoon library card and member's jacket?

I just asked for him to clarify his goal with low grip skinny tires or his philosophy. The Michelins are shit enough to drift at any reasonable speed, and believe it or not, you still need grip for that activity.

I'll admit I originally read the first post thinking there was intent for street use (and the inevitable omgfr-s curse thread), but handicapping the car so you can drive nutty at lower speeds still sounds weak sauce on the track when you're getting a more reasonable and similar effect with the Prius rubber.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by hippari

What are you implying by that, do I gotta authorize my hoon library card and member's jacket?

I just asked for him to clarify his goal with low grip skinny tires or his philosophy. The Michelins are shit enough to drift at any reasonable speed, and believe it or not, you still need grip for that activity.

I'll admit I originally read the first post thinking there was intent for street use (and the inevitable omgfr-s curse thread), but handicapping the car so you can drive nutty at lower speeds still sounds weak sauce on the track when you're getting a more reasonable and similar effect with the Prius rubber.

did you see the 3rd post in the thread, and the OPs response to it?

[hippari]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

did you see the 3rd post in the thread, and the OPs response to it?

yeah, the amg drifting and the love for the amg drifting.

but then I saw "Its not just about grip or drift. Its about the sensation of driving on the limit or balancing the car just a little beyond it."

[dori.]

Originally Posted by empower-auto

Using the throttle alone I can't break the tires in second unless it's a hard shift to second or I'm applying the gas at near full-lock (making the differential break the tires)

I've done it in 3rd? dunno man.

I did it many times in 2nd. on an empty traffic circle, during u-turns

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by hippari

yeah, the amg drifting and the love for the amg drifting.

It has nothing to the with the AMG drifting. Its the concept and philosophy.
Its not everyones cup of tea, so some will never fully understand.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

I'm already on winter rubber and don't want to switch back while it's still warm, since the car is so much more fun with lower grip, and winter tires don't squeal like mad every time they slip, unlike OEM Michelins that are trying to attract every cop around.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

That said - low grip on the street is not what I'd do for day to day driving. I can totally understand it, however, on the track. It's a way to have fun at a lower speed. There will be grip-junkies at the track that will look at you with puzzled looks, just ignore them

People either autoX on semi-slicks or just have fun on the track. I've seen people have semi-slicks on front and some worn out crappy eco tires on the back.. Local track is a go-kart track so its basically just about fun when driving there. :p

_________________

I think most people overestimate how low the grip would become on the the street if you had tires with a bit less grip than the Primacy HP.
The typical eco-boxes running around here have less grip than the 86.

The 86 also have a great chassis. Lowering the grip levels just make it easier to explore the limits of the car.
In all the reviews I've read, I cant remember anyone saying it lacks grip or that it should have more grip. Its more the opposite. More grip would just "ruin" the experience.

For the record, my current car Cooper S have Michelin Pilot Super Sport at the front and I always buy the best winter tires out there. Would never ever consider all season (crap) tires in the winter. Im all for good and predictable grip in bad conditions. But the amount of grip in modern day "low grip" tires like the Primacy HP is still quite high in my opinion. Especially in dry summer conditions.

For everyday driving could all seasons grand touring be a better solution to have less grip in the summer than aiming for skinny summer tires? Could maybe aim for 205/45-17 or 205/50-17 or 195/55-16.
Im generally skeptic about those tires. Winter tires feels more "mushy musy", would probably tolerate less heat and I have often experienced cars to be less neutral and have more under-steer with winter tires. So might experience some of that with all seasons too?

[apexaddict]

Best troll thread I've seen in a while.

[7thgear]

Not sure what is so troll about it.

Maybe some of you are just too young to remember a time when sports cars were light and tires were shit.

Any canyon road turned into a fantastic driving experience at low and safe speeds.

This all changed and we have really capable cars today. Even shitty econoboxes have plenty of grip to keep people safe at high speeds.

But whatever.

[hippari]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

Any canyon road turned into a fantastic driving experience at low and safe speeds.

This all changed and we have really capable cars today. Even shitty econoboxes have plenty of grip to keep people safe at high speeds.

If you are unable to have a fantastic driving experience with a car unless you have a trashy wheel setup, then you're depriving yourself of the car's strengths.

If this guy was gonna keep it entirely on the track, this wouldn't be an issue, but it sounds like he wants to take his car out on the street with an intentional decrease in its ability to stay stable. I'm concerned about the family of four he can may up careening into at 25mph-which is better than crashing into them at 50mph I suppose-just because he fancies himself a blooming Fredric Aasbo.

In a controlled environment, sure, do whatever; why not even try throwing some lunch trays under the rear wheels of your mini and have a blast. On the street with other commuters, please excuse me for being a little more than skeptical about installing an insta-oversteer button in the 86.

[Nezz]

Other commuters. ... yeah, that's not where I have fun, mate.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by hippari

If you are unable to have a fantastic driving experience with a car unless you have a trashy wheel setup, then you're depriving yourself of the car's strengths.

If this guy was gonna keep it entirely on the track, this wouldn't be an issue, but it sounds like he wants to take his car out on the street with an intentional decrease in its ability to stay stable. I'm concerned about the family of four he can may up careening into at 25mph-which is better than crashing into them at 50mph I suppose-just because he fancies himself a blooming Fredric Aasbo.

In a controlled environment, sure, do whatever; why not even try throwing some lunch trays under the rear wheels of your mini and have a blast. On the street with other commuters, please excuse me for being a little more than skeptical about installing an insta-oversteer button in the 86.

Going down a little on grip would still let the car have more Gs and grip than with really good tires in wet conditions. Would be no big deal going from say 0.9g to 0.75g. Basically the same grip-level as the average low powered hatchback here. And still way more grip than the average car had over here 20 years ago.
No biggie for people who learned driving RWD cars in the winter without any electronics. Oversteer is normal with a RWD and low grip. Back then I was basically drifting before I got my licence.
..Should be no big deal for any driver to go down a little on grip as long as they are aware if it.

If youre so afraid of reaching the cars limits you should never drive your car when wet outside or for gods sake not in the winter. RWD cars without electronics can get instant oversteer in 10mph and in 20mph and in 30mph etc. when cornering and pushing the gas pedal. Its basically lethal to just drive a car when there is snow. Or wet pavement, so little grip... (irony)

The ones who are able to play around with the levels of grip are the ones who have control over the limits and going above them.
Its the people who have no idea where the limits are and who have no idea driving above the limits who crashes the most. 4x4 SUVs in winter are a great example of that here in Norway.. Several of those in the ditches..

As long as grip is pretty much constant and grip is low and predictable. Having low grip is the safest thing in the world.
Usually when you add grip to a car it becomes worse and more dangerous to drive on the limit.

I think most people who dont get the sensation of lowgrip driving consider lowgrip to be unpredictable and that you would spin out in an instant. That is basically the opposite of how it works in a normal car.

Tiff explaines it in the beginning here, and to some extent through the video in between all the other basic stuff:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shwgNV36xFA"]Car Handling - Grip, Oversteer & Understeer explained by Tiff Needell - YouTube[/ame]

[jstn]

Originally Posted by empower-auto

Using the throttle alone I can't break the tires in second unless it's a hard shift to second or I'm applying the gas at near full-lock (making the differential break the tires)

It's not really going to power-oversteer outside of first gear unless you're already pushing it into the turn pretty fast. You really have to just chuck it into the corner hard and then counter-steer + stay on the throttle. Also don't hit anything or we'll all laugh at you.

[hippari]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Going down a little on grip would still let the car have more Gs and grip than with really good tires in wet conditions. Would be no big deal going from say 0.9g to 0.75g. Basically the same grip-level as the average low powered hatchback here. And still way more grip than the average car had over here 20 years ago.
No biggie for people who learned driving RWD cars in the winter without any electronics. Oversteer is normal with a RWD and low grip. Back then I was basically drifting before I got my licence.
..Should be no big deal for any driver to go down a little on grip as long as they are aware if it.

If youre so afraid of reaching the cars limits you should never drive your car when wet outside or for gods sake not in the winter. RWD cars without electronics can get instant oversteer in 10mph and in 20mph and in 30mph etc. when cornering and pushing the gas pedal. Its basically lethal to just drive a car when there is snow. Or wet pavement, so little grip... (irony)

The ones who are able to play around with the levels of grip are the ones who have control over the limits and going above them.
Its the people who have no idea where the limits are and who have no idea driving above the limits who crashes the most. 4x4 SUVs in winter are a great example of that here in Norway.. Several of those in the ditches..

As long as grip is pretty much constant and grip is low and predictable. Having low grip is the safest thing in the world.
Usually when you add grip to a car it becomes worse and more dangerous to drive on the limit.

I think most people who dont get the sensation of lowgrip driving consider lowgrip to be unpredictable and that you would spin out in an instant. That is basically the opposite of how it works in a normal car.

I think you're misunderstanding my concern for you (or the people around you). It's a given some cars perform worse than others and in some road conditions with some tire combinations it becomes much more dangerous to drive. By turning down the tire size, you are increasing the extent of the severity behind all of those factors because (I may be straw-manning the issue here, and I apologize, but that's why I asked for clarity in my first post) you want to be in a more frequent state of wrestling with traction at what you feel is a more controllable speed.

There's no problem until you mess up and maybe hit somebody or something you didn't expect to be there. The issue is that you qualify yourself as a capable driver. You may very well be capable since you say you were drifting before you got your license. You might just be the next big thing, holy keeper of the slide beasts. Or you might be that guy who had a CRX and put his FR-S into a pole because his anecdotal skills didn't pan out that day.

Either way, I've drawn this out a bit much; you live very far away from me so your driving is no physical danger to me regardless of what you do. I want to advise you to keep your experiments on a sanctioned track and away from anyone else, but that's up to you as I'm not qualified to tell you to behave. I still think that when you do get an FR-S or any FR car, you'd be better off learning car control at speed (on a track) with the original tires, or doing donuts around a parking cone rather than daily driving around with donuts on the drive wheels.