RR Racing Brake Development -- Competition and Street

[Rafi@RR-racing]

Hi All,


Just wanted to introduce ourselves and answer questions about our new BBK's we have developed for the 86 platform.


Front 13" BBK's:


Sport Performance: Our Sport Performance kit utilizes high quality Subaru STi OEM size 1 piece slotted brake rotors. After extensive testing to ensure proper brake force and bias, we selected excellent Wilwood Forged Superlite 4 piston calipers, which are mounted using our CNC machined aircraft aluminum brackets. These are excellent calipers for the price giving much better braking performance than the OEM calipers. This kit can be used for both track and street offer 90% of the performance of our Stage I and II kits.


Stage I -- 6 piston Wilwood Forged Narrow Superlite radial mount calipers mated to STi 13"x1.18" (328x30mm) rotors. Unlike STi Brembos, these calipers maintain proper brake bias. We use only genuine Goodridge USA brake lines, and machine all of our components in the USA. Stage I kits are upgradable to Stage III 2 piece floating competition rotors.


Stage II -- Same features as Stage I, but utilizes Wilwoods 6 piston Forged Suplerlite caliper which allows for much thicker pads (0.8" vs 0.65"). Stage II kits are upgradable to Stage IV 2 piece floating competition rotors.


Stage III -- 6 piston Wilwood Forged Narrow Calipers for extra wheel clearance mated to our fully floating 13x1.25" (328x32mm) 2-piece competition rotors featuring directionally curved cooling vanes, unique slot pattern, and zinc/chromate plating for corrosion resistance. Rotors are manufactured by Coleman Racing and are the exact same rotors/castings/metallurgy/heat treatment as used by many NASCAR Winston Cup race cars.


Stage IV -- Same as the Stage III, but utilizes Wilwoods Forged Suplerlite 6 caliper and thicker 0.8" pad. Requires a bit more wheel clearance than our Stage III.


Rear 13" BBK's:


Stage IV:

Regular Caliper Option: 13" 2 piece rotors mated to Wilwood forged Superlite 4 piston calipers. This Kit maintains stock front/rear bias and is recommended for cars with no minimal rear downforce.


High Down Force Option: 13" 2 piece rotors with larger rear caliper pistons result in significant rear brake bias shift. We have developed for, and tested this kit on the Element Tuning Time Attack FRS which runs about 1000lbs of rear downforce. The rear bias shift is necessary to maintain proper ABS operation and maximize braking performance.



Sport Performance: this kit was designed as a lower cost alternative to our Stage IV (competition 2 piece) rear big brake kits. The Sport Performance kit utilizes OEM size (315mm) one-piece STi rear rotors which retain full e-brake functionality. Calipers feature full billet aluminum construction and 4 stainless steel pistons for extremely effective clamping torque. Compared to our Competition rear kits, the Sport Performance kit rotors are smaller (315mm vs 330mm), and the calipers/pads are smaller as well.


I want to thank everyone in advance for considering our brake kits and look forward to answering your technical questions.


-Rafi

[Rafi@RR-racing]

I should mention that we did all of our development work on the Element Tuning Time Attack FRS. We would really like to thank Phil Grabow for his experience and feedback on this project! Currently Element Tuning is running our Competition Stage IV in the front, and our high downforce Competition Stage II kit in the rear.


[ame]http://youtu.be/k0UKvK4bfJE[/ame]

[Vroomin86]

That's awesome fellas, great to see a company keeping in mind the use of the average owner. If your ever looking to give a first forum member a discount let me know! I will happily rock these!

[Rafi@RR-racing]

Originally Posted by Vroomin86

That's awesome fellas, great to see a company keeping in mind the use of the average owner. If your ever looking to give a first forum member a discount let me know! I will happily rock these!

Absolutely, we can't talk pricing here, but we are looking for serious track junkies to run our products. PM me and I am sure we can meet your expectations.


-Rafi

[Calum]

Phil has been very vocal about the stock brake bias being awful for track use. Clearly the stage 2 rear kits change the brake bias, but do the other kits fix the bias issues or maintain stock bias? And what was the reason for the decision?

Before everyone else asks, do the calipers use dust boots on the pistons?

What size pads are used? What kind of material selection is available?

Are the front rotors stock sti parts? Don't they have a different bolt pattern?

[Rafi@RR-racing]

Originally Posted by Calum

Phil has been very vocal about the stock brake bias being awful for track use. Clearly the stage 2 rear kits change the brake bias, but do the other kits fix the bias issues or maintain stock bias? And what was the reason for the decision?

Before everyone else asks, do the calipers use dust boots on the pistons?

What size pads are used? What kind of material selection is available?

Are the front rotors stock sti parts? Don't they have a different bolt pattern?

In reply to your questions:


-Phil's car is an all-out race car running 325 section race slicks, and massive downforce. The issues he faces are nothing like most of the 86's we see at the track. Our Stage I-IV kits maintain stock bias which we have thoroughly tested on stock cars and cars with upgraded wheel/tire and suspension. These kits are much better proportioned that the common "STi Brembo" swap... we do not recommend doing this swap because STi Brembo's result in too much front brake bias. For guys running mild rear downforce, we have a Stage I rear upgrade... and for dedicated track cars like Phil's we have a Stage II rear upgrade. To the best of my knowledge, no one out there has the breadth of brake offerings we do for the 86 --- from mild track use to all out competition.


-Our Stage I and Stage III kits use the Wilwood Forged Narrow 6 piston caliper. It uses internal seals which are very durable, and are the same calipers that Wilwood uses on their street kits. Internal seals hold up the heat generated at the track much better than conventional external rubber seals you find on Stoptech BBKs. Our shop Lexus IS-F has factory Brembo's on the front, and I can tell you we have fried the stock rubber external seals.


-The pad used in the Wilwood Forged Superlite 6 calipers are the most common pad shape anywhere -- you can literally get any compound from any pad manufacturer, be it Wilwood, Hawk, Porterfield, etc... We have a range of Wilwood or Hawk compounds available when purchasing our kits. Because these pads are so common in racing, the they are relatively inexpensive.


- Solid rotors on our Stage I and II kits are off of the 2004 STi. 04 STi's use the 5x100 bolt pattern, same as on the BRZ and WRX. We use high carbon premium rotors and then machine in a curved slot pattern.


.. and one more thing.... when you buy our Stage I and Stage II kits, YOU CAN ALWAYS UPGRADE THEM TO 2-piece Competition rotors!! That means that down the road when you are ready to upgrade, you can just buy our 2-piece Competition rotors, and you will effectively have our Stage III/IV Competition kit.


-Rafi

[Calum]

I had a couple more questions but RR's site covered it.

http://www.rr-racing.com/BRZ-FR-S-Fr...gt86fbk001.htm

My only remaining question, will any of these kits fit the stock rims?

Awesome looking product guys!

[Rafi@RR-racing]

Originally Posted by Calum

I had a couple more questions but RR's site covered it.

http://www.rr-racing.com/BRZ-FR-S-Fr...gt86fbk001.htm

My only remaining question, will any of these kits fit the stock rims?

Awesome looking product guys!

That's a good question, generally the Stage II and IV will not fit stock rims because they use much wider calipers to accommodate thick pads.


So if you want maximum clearance, you need to go with Stage I or Stage III which use the more narrow caliper. Rear should fit no problem with stock wheels.


That said, for the front, even with the Stage I or Stage III, you will still need approx. 10mm spacer for stock wheels.


You can download the wheel fitment templates off of the description page of each brake kit on our site.


-Rafi

[Rafi@RR-racing]

We are getting a lot of PM's asking about the weights of our kits. Let me summarize it here (even our solid rotor kits are lighter than stock):


Stage I -- 4 lbs lighter than stock per pair
Stage II -- 2.8 lbs lighter than stock per pair
Stage III -- 15 lbs lighter than stock per pair
Stage IV -- 14 lbs lighter than stock per pair




Rafi

[Lawnik]

Originally Posted by Rafi@RR-racing

We are getting a lot of PM's asking about the weights of our kits. Let me summarize it here (even our solid rotor kits are lighter than stock):


Stage I -- 4 lbs lighter than stock
Stage II -- 2.8 lbs lighter than stock
Stage III -- 15 lbs lighter than stock
Stage IV -- 14 lbs lighter than stock




Rafi

Thanks, that's a lot of weight savings. Especially with rotors that size.

How about the weight difference in the rear? Must be some with the two piece rotor.

You have a PM

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Rafi@RR-racing

....the Element Tuning Time Attack FRS which runs about 1000lbs of rear downforce.

[Rafi@RR-racing]

Originally Posted by Lawnik

Thanks, that's a lot of weight savings. Especially with rotors that size.

How about the weight difference in the rear? Must be some with the two piece rotor.

You have a PM

The rear kit is 3.3lbs heavier per side compared to OEM vented rotors. This is mainly because the stock components are so "lightweight," especially the stock single piston calipers vs. the forged 4 piston Wilwoods. The 0.8" thick pads also contribute to the weight gain over stock.


The more relavant comparison would be VS the STi 2 piston Brembo upgrade.... and while I do not have weights on that, I am quite certain our 2 piece rear kit is both better and lighter.


Rafi

[CSG Mike]

STis, BRZs and S2000s; you have my attention.

Do you offer a rear rotors that retains full e-brake functionality? Is the Stage 2 rear kit made for cars that have a substantial rear downforce bias only? What is the expected service life of the calipers between rebuilds? How much is the rebuild kit?

What kind of temperatures were you seeing on Phil's FRS, both surface spikes and sustained? Will you be offering any ducting solutions?

[Rafi@RR-racing]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

STis, BRZs and S2000s; you have my attention.

Do you offer a rear rotors that retains full e-brake functionality? Is the Stage 2 rear kit made for cars that have a substantial rear downforce bias only? What is the expected service life of the calipers between rebuilds? How much is the rebuild kit?

What kind of temperatures were you seeing on Phil's FRS, both surface spikes and sustained? Will you be offering any ducting solutions?

The only way to retain full e-brake functionality is to line the hat with an iron sleeve, but that adds weight. I understand that drift cars need the e-brake, but this kit is intended for road racing. The e-brake is functional for parking purposes.


Stage II is made for cars with substantial downforce and increases rear bias by 25% compared to Stage I, so I do not see it working on a car without rear downforce, keeping in mind that guys running track tires without rear downforce will induce more weight transfer to the front... so I think that a Stage II may induce rear ABS activation.



We are working on ducting solution, but I must tell you we have no temperature issues on Phil's car. Phil runs time attack, so he needs really powerful brakes but endurance is not an issue. Compared to stock, this setup is so robust, temperature is not an issue. The front Coleman Racing Winston Cup rotors 13"x1.25" are extremely robust for this application.


Regarding caliper service intervals -- clearly that depends on the application. Endurance racing and sustained heat will obviously require more frequent service. Replacement high temperature seal set for 12 pistons runs only about $35. They are easy to replace, just pressurize the caliper to pop the pistons, clean, and replace. Stage II and IV caliper are anodized, so the finish is really durable and will last a lifetime.


We can also rebuild these calipers with Wilwood Thermlock pistons. These pistons have a thermal shield that is supposed to reduce fluid temps by 25%. BUT, to be I do not see this as a necessity for all but the most extreme endurance application.


Lastly, we will soon offer a thick titanium shim option with these kits for applications where fluid temperature is a problem.


-Rafi