SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[JimR]

The BRZ, FR-S, ND MX-5, and RX-8 have all gotten it done in CS National Solo...in the last four months.

The perception that there is a grand gulf of performance between a BRZ and TRD FR-S - laughably, coming mainly from the fan club for the two cars - doesn't match the reality. In the grand scheme of the Street category, both cars fit very neatly within the noise range of what constitutes CS class. And at the moment, CS is a popular and diverse class.

The ND MX-5 could and will likely build an edge in the CS trophy case over time. It's lighter, has better suspension geometry, and accelerates better. You still have to make the case that the twins, RX-8, NC MX-5, etc., have enough of a performance disadvantage to break the CS mold and not totally upset their destination class. Good luck.

For fun, let's say you convince the Solo board to cherry-pick the '13-16 BRZ and non-TRD FR-S for DS even though, honestly, we're mainly getting beaten by better drivers. Then I'm going to write the letter that all '13+ FR-S/86/BRZ go to DS because the ND MX-5 "beats" the whole lot. See how the deck chairs get rearranged?

[AlanLGuy]

Originally Posted by JimR

For fun, let's say you convince the Solo board to cherry-pick the '13-16 BRZ and non-TRD FR-S for DS even though, honestly, we're mainly getting beaten by better drivers. Then I'm going to write the letter that all '13+ FR-S/86/BRZ go to DS because the ND MX-5 "beats" the whole lot. See how the deck chairs get rearranged?

Who needs to convince them? It's already been proposed and is out for member comment... YOU(or anyone else who doesn't want it to happen) need to convince them that the BRZ/non-TRD FR-S should NOT be moved.

[JimR]

Originally Posted by AlanLGuy

Who needs to convince them? It's already been proposed and is out for member comment... YOU(or anyone else who doesn't want it to happen) need to convince them that the BRZ/non-TRD FR-S should NOT be moved.

Do you know how I know that you know that I know that you know we're talking about the same thing?

Wrote my letter to the SEB in March.

[Locust]

The results really do show that the BRZ can still compete with the FR-S. Is it 100% even competition? No. But you won't get 100% even competition with any other cars in any other classes. Every class has its distribution of cars and what some do better than others. Like I've said before: I feel bad for the BRZ drivers not being able to do the TRD springs/sways but it's not an insurmountable advantage. If they move it, fine. But then where does the 2017+ BRZ go? B-Street because it has a slight advantage over a TRD FR-S? C-Street? What happens if the FR-S can't compete anymore. I'd argue that the changes to the 2017+ BRZ are far more advantageous than lowering springs and some Toyota made sway bars. Do we move the FR-S down to D-Street now TRD package and all? Where does it end?



For reference:

The BRZ’s 2.0-liter flat-four has less internal friction and increased airflow, resulting in a small uptick in output of 5 horsepower and 5 lb-ft of torque, for new totals of 205 and 156. Aided by slightly shorter gearing, acceleration is claimed to be improved—at least with the standard six-speed manual gearbox.

Subaru also applied some tuning changes to the BRZ’s already nicely balanced chassis. The springs and dampers are new, and the rear anti-roll bar is larger than before. Structural rigidity increases thanks to new reinforcements for the strut-tower braces, the transmission crossmember plate, and the rear-wheel housings. The stability-control system also has been revised, with the previous Sport mode permitting more slip angle before intervening, prompting Subaru to rename this mode “Track.”

For the first time, the BRZ will be offered with a Performance package for manual-transmission Limited models. It includes upgrades for those who plan on frequenting track days. Larger front and rear brakes with Brembo calipers promise improved stopping power and greater fade resistance; the package also includes Sachs performance dampers and black-painted 17-inch wheels.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by AlanLGuy

Who needs to convince them? It's already been proposed and is out for member comment... YOU(or anyone else who doesn't want it to happen) need to convince them that the BRZ/non-TRD FR-S should NOT be moved.

Why do you assume they are predisposed to actually make a change to their original ruling? Isn't it standard procedure to put the proposal out for comment even though it may fail miserably when it comes time for it to be voted on?

If I was trying to run a BRZ in CS I'd be petitioning to be able to use the TRD parts via a special exception. And for local events, I'd run the parts anyway. Creating a quagmire of classifying exceptions for street class is counterproductive to SCCA's goals of getting as many people autocrossing as possible.

[cueball89]

Hi,

I did my 2nd autox in my brz last weekend. I've been autoxing since 2006 ~5 or 6 regional events for 4 or 5 years. I was driving a 99 impreza l wagon then finished up in my 03wrx wagon. Things changed and I haven't autoxed in a few years. I've got a few questions on the brz.

How capable is the car in CS right off the showroom floor? My car is stock down to the tires and tire pressures. I'm not even sure what the alignment is, I've had the car a little over a month.

Event 1 results. http://www.snyr-scca.org/results/event1_052916_fin.htm

I'm CS #1. Our courses are tight, nothing like the videos seen in this thread. The lot is 600' long by 150' wide and has some serious elevation changes and off camber turns. There's not a ton of competition in each classs but some individual drivers are pretty stinking quick. I ran a 60.135 an frs in stx ran a 58.750. I feel if I put a good run together I could have ran a mid to low 59. Had a lot of fun and drove ok.

Event 2 results. http://www.snyr-scca.org/results/event2_061216_fin.htm

This course was much more open but still tight. It was held on the same lot as event 1. The 370z which took 2nd in CS was miss classed but had me seriously questioning my driving ability, the driver was brand new to autox but got a ton of instruction and took many ride alongs. He's learning the right way imo. I took 2 fun run rides in the 370, the car is very quick, brakes and turns pretty damn well. The driver seems to have natural talent, did a lot of things well but think the car could have gone much quicker. The same frs in stx was there and I was within .2 of second until I gave him some advice prior to the 8th run. I ran a 45.844, the frs ran a 44.522. Felt a low 45 was possible for me if I got all sections just right. Thought I was driving pretty well, but still love to overdrive the slow sections of the course.


Before I make changes to the car I want to make sure I've got a good grasp of the car. I want to have pushed it sufficiently far for an average at best autoxer. I don't want to add sticky tires or throw parts at it as a band aid to go faster.

This is my first rwd car and almost all my driving experience is awd based. Is this car faster sliding around a bit vs driving the line? In some of the corners during the 2nd event there was a sweet spot I'd occasionally find where the rear of the car would just step out and stay there. This felt like I was going much quicker through the corner, there was zero correction needed on corner exit. It feels like there is an optimum slip angle for the car?

I'd like to get some oem camber bolts and autox tires in the future. Adding more camber up front on my imprezas reduced understeer, will this make the brz even more tail happy? Is the cars awesome balance still there with better tires?

Sorry for the length and for any help!

[AlanLGuy]

Originally Posted by cueball89

Hi,

I did my 2nd autox in my brz last weekend. I've been autoxing since 2006 ~5 or 6 regional events for 4 or 5 years. I was driving a 99 impreza l wagon then finished up in my 03wrx wagon. Things changed and I haven't autoxed in a few years. I've got a few questions on the brz.

How capable is the car in CS right off the showroom floor? My car is stock down to the tires and tire pressures. I'm not even sure what the alignment is, I've had the car a little over a month.

Event 1 results. http://www.snyr-scca.org/results/event1_052916_fin.htm

I'm CS #1. Our courses are tight, nothing like the videos seen in this thread. The lot is 600' long by 150' wide and has some serious elevation changes and off camber turns. There's not a ton of competition in each classs but some individual drivers are pretty stinking quick. I ran a 60.135 an frs in stx ran a 58.750. I feel if I put a good run together I could have ran a mid to low 59. Had a lot of fun and drove ok.

Event 2 results. http://www.snyr-scca.org/results/event2_061216_fin.htm

This course was much more open but still tight. It was held on the same lot as event 1. The 370z which took 2nd in CS was miss classed but had me seriously questioning my driving ability, the driver was brand new to autox but got a ton of instruction and took many ride alongs. He's learning the right way imo. I took 2 fun run rides in the 370, the car is very quick, brakes and turns pretty damn well. The driver seems to have natural talent, did a lot of things well but think the car could have gone much quicker. The same frs in stx was there and I was within .2 of second until I gave him some advice prior to the 8th run. I ran a 45.844, the frs ran a 44.522. Felt a low 45 was possible for me if I got all sections just right. Thought I was driving pretty well, but still love to overdrive the slow sections of the course.


Before I make changes to the car I want to make sure I've got a good grasp of the car. I want to have pushed it sufficiently far for an average at best autoxer. I don't want to add sticky tires or throw parts at it as a band aid to go faster.

This is my first rwd car and almost all my driving experience is awd based. Is this car faster sliding around a bit vs driving the line? In some of the corners during the 2nd event there was a sweet spot I'd occasionally find where the rear of the car would just step out and stay there. This felt like I was going much quicker through the corner, there was zero correction needed on corner exit. It feels like there is an optimum slip angle for the car?

I'd like to get some oem camber bolts and autox tires in the future. Adding more camber up front on my imprezas reduced understeer, will this make the brz even more tail happy? Is the cars awesome balance still there with better tires?

Sorry for the length and for any help!

The car is very capable in CS, though the addition of the ND Miata might shake things up. Locally it just depends on the level of prep of the others in your class. 200tw tires will be the best upgrade by far. The crash bolts and additional camber will mostly help with tire wear and will give a little bit more front grip(which in turn can feel like reduced rear grip i.e. More tail happy).

This car is absolutely a momentum car, meaning maintaining speed and eliminating distance should be you top priority(no wide corvette lines through corners). Sometimes a little bit of oversteer and throttle through while coming out of the corner is fastest line, but it can also mean you are coming in to the corner too fast and may need to brake a little earlier. I've found that the car generally doesn't like trail braking, a habit you may have picked up to help rotation on your 4wd cars. It likes to brake early, and get on the throttle early.

I'd start with 200tw tires, then consider the crash bolts and alignment because they are cheap, easy. You'll probably want a front swaybar after that to reduce some of the tail-happiness of the car. I think a lot of BRZ's are still running the Strano bar... I'm currently running the TRD front and rear... Found the Whiteline to be too much bar with the TRD rear and springs.

After 200 TW tires though... A set of Koni yellows is going to be the best bang for your buck, especially if you get them on sale. The shock adjustment can really help you fine tune the balance of the car.

If you are within a second and half of STX you aren't doing bad, especially in a stock BRZ. Hard to say for sure at a local though. Locally I was raw timing STX pretty regularly in CS last year, but most of them were lightly prepped and not on the RE-71R

[AlanLGuy]

As a follow up. Thing only thing I found that absolutely killed the balance of the car was throwing on a big front swaybar before getting adjustable shocks. When I first put the Whiteline bar on it was a huge driving adjustment because the car "felt" a lot more pushy. A lot of this was a change to driving style (less trail braking, more early throttle) and also getting the Koni's so I could stiffen the rear up

[strat61caster]

@cueball89

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25494

If you're still on OE tires you'll probably give that STX FR-S a real hard time with just the pedal dance and a set of re71r's.

[cueball89]

@AlanLGuy
Thanks for the feedback. Are koni's recommended over the bilstein's? I imagine that's due to the rebound adjustment on the konis, I have a set on my wrx. I like them quite a bit. I was interested in trying the bilsteins down the road on the brz.

Eliminating distance saved a ton of time in the 2nd event. I have a tendency to overdrive the slow stuff trying to keep up the momentum.

The stx prep was pretty light: header, axle back delete, open flash tablet map, rce springs, 225f / 255r re760 tires. Those were the bigger mods I remember.


@strat61caster
Have you noticed a big difference between holding down the traction control button and the pedal dance. I've read some information on the pedal dance. Seems like it only works under braking? I did notice the stability light flashing in the first event going through the slalom even though I never touched the brakes. I didn't feel anything that I thought was abnormal. Will pulling the abs fuse achieve the same result as the pedal dance? The procedure looks like it will get old pretty quick.

[strat61caster]

Yes the only difference is under braking, if you go to the last few pages of the thread I detail out what I felt, but in short, without it the car is extremely reluctant and is actively resisting rotation under braking, if you're used to trail braking I bet the car feels pushy on the brakes.

Yes you can pull the fuse, then you don't have abs either if that's preferred (although I'm starting to believe that if you're on the abs n autocross for more than a pulse or three you're probably braking too hard) however I believe that is against street class rules.

[cueball89]

Interesting read. I try and be smooth off the brake and back onto the gas which may result in trail braking. The brz turns and rotates compared to the imprezas I'm used to driving, especially the gd. I haven't felt the car not wanting to turn unless I'm over driving it. Ill definitely be paying attention to any pushing during trail braking now! Good call on the scca stock class rule. My 1st impreza didnt have abs and the pulling the fuse on the wrx was standard practice, though they never ran in a stock class. The abs was hyper sensitive over bumps and rough pavement.

[AustinTX]

Originally Posted by JimR

The BRZ, FR-S, ND MX-5, and RX-8 have all gotten it done in CS National Solo...in the last four months.

The perception that there is a grand gulf of performance between a BRZ and TRD FR-S - laughably, coming mainly from the fan club for the two cars - doesn't match the reality. In the grand scheme of the Street category, both cars fit very neatly within the noise range of what constitutes CS class. And at the moment, CS is a popular and diverse class.

The ND MX-5 could and will likely build an edge in the CS trophy case over time. It's lighter, has better suspension geometry, and accelerates better. You still have to make the case that the twins, RX-8, NC MX-5, etc., have enough of a performance disadvantage to break the CS mold and not totally upset their destination class. Good luck.

For fun, let's say you convince the Solo board to cherry-pick the '13-16 BRZ and non-TRD FR-S for DS even though, honestly, we're mainly getting beaten by better drivers. Then I'm going to write the letter that all '13+ FR-S/86/BRZ go to DS because the ND MX-5 "beats" the whole lot. See how the deck chairs get rearranged?

I stopped trying to AX my BRZ long ago, but I'm curious why you care so much about this. Typically, people that don't have the car don't care, and the people that have the car are the ones challenged to lobby for change. Seems like enough people are asking - why continue this effort to kill the campaign? BTW, I wrote a letter to simply divorce BRZ and FR-S. It is kinda silly to bring the 'non-TRD' FR-S down with the BRZ. They are already unique cars, so it would be easy to treat them as such and split them cleanly.

Besides, all this nonsense about the difference being less than typical driver noise tells me you have not yet felt the power of BRZ understeer

[NJ10]

^Pushy brz checking in.

As to those opposing the changes, do you have an alternate suggestion to balance it out? The brz attendance is dismal at best at a lot of national events. I'm still running mine because I'm a noob and there is a lot of driver skill that needs fixing before I can actually compete to stay midpack or close to trophies, but I wouldn't want to run an underdog in a competition if I was better. Driving both the FR-S and BRZ at prosolos, the FR-S felt much better and less pushy. That minimal camber gain, a stiffer rear bar definitely do help.

Write to support allowing TRD for the BRZ if you don't want them moved to DS.