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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 10-18-2018, 07:31 PM   #1
motrek
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Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?

Eager to hear some thoughts on this... I'm in the market for a new car...

I _want_ an 86/BRZ. I think they're sexy as hell. I like the idea of a small, lightweight, low car. I've tracked an FR-S and it was fun, although it sure was tricky to keep the speed up.

I understand that with sports cars, concessions have to be made, like useless back seats, limited trunk space, noisy cabins, door windows with no frames, etc.

That's all fine, if it's all in the name of making a car go around a track faster.

Except now there's the Civic Si, which goes around VIR 4 seconds faster than a BRZ according to Car and Driver.

Plus the Civic Si only weighs ~100 lbs. more, it has more torque, better skidpad numbers, it has useful back seats, a bigger trunk, door windows with frames, a nicer interior, it's cheaper, all the reviews say the handling is spectacular, and it comes standard with all the features that Toyobaru charge $3000 extra for (automatic climate control, CarPlay, etc.).

I really don't want to be a guy who drives a Honda Civic, plus I think the new ones are uglier than sin.

But I also don't want to be a guy who pays thousands of dollars more for a less-comfortable, less-practical "driver's car" that can't drive around a racetrack any faster than a Civic.

Any thoughts on the subject are appreciated!
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:35 PM   #2
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You're a Civic guy. Embrace it.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:35 PM   #3
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You'd be stupid not to!! You already expressed a desire for the more practical and faster car, so buy it!
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:40 PM   #4
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You'd be stupid not to!! You already expressed a desire for the more practical and faster car, so buy it!
I'm pretty sure I did the opposite, i.e., I expressed a desire for the car that's less practical and slower and more expensive. :/
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:44 PM   #5
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I'm pretty sure I did the opposite, i.e., I expressed a desire for the car that's less practical and slower and more expensive. :/
90% of your post is listing out all the pros of the civic and all the negatives of the 86. You know the choice you've already made. Go get a honda.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:46 PM   #6
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:52 PM   #7
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90% of your post is listing out all the pros of the civic and all the negatives of the 86. You know the choice you've already made. Go get a honda.
I joined this board in the hopes that some 86/BRZ owners would sell me on the car that I actually want, i.e., make a case for the 86/BRZ.

If I were to try to make a case for it, I'd say the handling is better. But how can the handling be better if it's slower around a racetrack than a car with similar weight and power. I mean, you could argue that the handling is more predictable, but better? Hmm.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:06 PM   #8
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FWD Coupe or RWD sportscar. Put the right tires on the 86 and the Honda would not be victorious with the lap time. I DO like the SI but I like the 86 much more. I had a 996 GT3 and the FRS reminds me of it in many ways, power not being one of the things though
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:11 PM   #9
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I joined this board in the hopes that some 86/BRZ owners would sell me on the car that I actually want, i.e., make a case for the 86/BRZ.

If I were to try to make a case for it, I'd say the handling is better. But how can the handling be better if it's slower around a racetrack than a car with similar weight and power. I mean, you could argue that the handling is more predictable, but better? Hmm.
we don't convince people because far too often we've had posters come back and claim how much they think the 86/BRZ platform is just trash and that we're all too blind to see it...too many people have misconceptions about what role the twins best fill. It is a feel good very basic machine, nothing more.


The fact that you need convincing from a forum and you're worried about how fast & practical the 86 is are all red flags for a bad breakup one day. Practicality & speed, which the twins adequately have, were very low priorities for me. I loved how the twins look, I love the feel they provide, I prefer RWD dynamics and I personally like the "weak" engine as it allows me to bang it off the redline while staying legal.


The twins are very straightforward...if you had seat time, especially on the track (which is more than 95% of the posters who ask for opinions on their consideration) and if ya still couldn't decide whether it is right for you then I think it means move on...
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:31 PM   #10
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It's not the handling. It's how it makes you feel. The feedback through the seat and steering wheel, the mechanical rawness. I don't know how an Si feels. Never driven one. But that's how the 86 makes me feel. It's just the delicacy and intuitiveness of all the inputs and responses that get me. The speed can always be addressed. But I feel like that purity can't be put into a car. It usually comes with it or it doesn't.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:52 PM   #11
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i don't know why you need ppl on internet tell you what car to get. get the civic, 86 is a terrible number game car. FWD also has the most predictable driving behavior so in ur book FWD will definitely be the best handling car.


* but if you gonna get a civic, why not just get a type R at MSRP, you just have to order and wait instead of picking one on their lot....
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:37 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
I joined this board in the hopes that some 86/BRZ owners would sell me on the car that I actually want, i.e., make a case for the 86/BRZ.

If I were to try to make a case for it, I'd say the handling is better. But how can the handling be better if it's slower around a racetrack than a car with similar weight and power. I mean, you could argue that the handling is more predictable, but better? Hmm.


The handling issue is probably because the OEM tires on the twin are not up to par with the tires offered on most sports cars, or even a lot of sporty renditions of economy cars. I wouldn't be surprised to find out the civic runs a better tire. Swap out for a setup with a width and compound more representative of what you would expect on a sports car and they handle quite well. The downside of course is this isn't something you should have to spend extra money on after the fact.


As far as the Civic thing, the only comment I really have is you're stupid if you buy a new Si instead of an 8th gen, or an EP3, or an RSX, or an EG/EF hatch, or a CRX, or an S2000. There's probably more that I forgot. Those are all cheaper and they just don't make 'em like they used to, at least not in the fun department.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:41 PM   #13
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The twins are very straightforward...if you had seat time, especially on the track (which is more than 95% of the posters who ask for opinions on their consideration) and if ya still couldn't decide whether it is right for you then I think it means move on...
Hmm. Well, on the track I thought the car was pretty great. I wanted more power in the straights but I also liked how it rewards driving skill with more momentum.

That's basically what prompted me to test-drive an 86 to see how it is on public roads. Unfortunately the demo model they had at the dealership had the TRD exhaust and TRD suspension. I thought the cabin noise was unbearable and the ride was much too harsh. Hopefully due to the TRD "upgrades." At some point I will go find a stock model to test-drive. I also learned that there's a hole in the passenger footwell to let in engine noise, and I will try plugging that for my next drive.

I have to say I was also pretty disappointed with the acceleration during regular street driving. The way it's geared, 2nd gear is super useful on the track when you're coming out of a turn at 30-40 MPH, but if you're just turning at an intersection at normal speeds (10-15 MPH) then it feels pretty worthless. Actually I'm thinking about test-driving an automatic 86/BRZ next to see if it feels any different. Maybe I've been spoiled by BMW 6-cylinders, but my current car is only rated at 185 lb-ft and it's 500 lbs. heaver so I don't know why it feels like it pulls SO much harder in 2nd... (thoughts??)

Walking into the dealership to do this test-drive, I was 90% sure I was going to buy a new 86/BRZ, but after that horrible drive, I'm down to like 30%. That's what prompted me to start looking for alternatives, e.g., Civic Si. I really hope the stock 86/BRZ is much quieter and more comfortable.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:54 PM   #14
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...
As far as the Civic thing, the only comment I really have is you're stupid if you buy a new Si instead of an 8th gen, or an EP3, or an RSX, or an EG/EF hatch, or a CRX, or an S2000. There's probably more that I forgot. Those are all cheaper and they just don't make 'em like they used to, at least not in the fun department.
Hmm. What got me onto this lap time thing was the recent issue of Car and Driver where they published all their lap times for the cars they've tested at VIR.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...istorical-data

The new Si seems to be much faster than the old ones and slightly faster than the S2000. The current Civic chassis (type R variant) also set the world-record for FWD at the Nurburgring a few months ago. Seems like Honda has made a pretty impressive car. Shame the exterior design seems to have been done by 6 year olds.
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