follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Forced Induction

Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-25-2018, 03:00 PM   #1
DesertLava
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: '17 Hot Lava
Location: California
Posts: 55
Thanks: 22
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Specific goals in mind... Need help selecting FI kit and tune accordingly

Hello all,

I know the question of most reliable FI has come up numerous times, but I wanted to pose the question given my specific circumstance.

I don't track my car regularly and I'm not looking for the biggest power gains possible. My commute to work consists of a 85 mile (each way) drive that goes from 4000 ft elevation to sea level. Then reverse on the way back (sea level to 4000 ft).

My stock '17 86 is fine for me at sea level, but is an absolute slouch in the thinner air when going up towards 4000 ft. Given that NA and SC have typically losses at elevation, I am leaning towards a turbo kit and tune. An SC would be fine if I changed the pulleys, but then at sea level I'd have to swap back or possibly explode my engine (if setup for power at 4000 ft). I understand this is the reason why plane engines are turbocharged and not supercharged.

What turbo kit would you recommend for me that makes my commute more enjoyable on the uphills. Do I need a barometric sensor to adjust for the varying pressure at altitude? Or would the turbocharger just take varying times to spool given the thinner air? The way I understand it is that I will always create the same absolute boost pressure at any altitude, just the time it takes will vary.

Important: 2017 86 with automatic transmission.

Thanks

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
DesertLava is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 03:34 PM   #2
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 12,760
Thanks: 7,912
Thanked 12,368 Times in 5,903 Posts
Mentioned: 867 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
4000 feet is not much; we often track at that elevation.

Both SC and TC setups will have no issue at that elevation. Turbos will spool significantly slower, but ultimately have the same output. A SC will lose output with elevation. MAPs are universally required for both SC and TC setups for any modern tune.

It sounds like you're pretty set on a turbo.

PM me to order.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 03:52 PM   #3
RIĐO
Member
 
RIĐO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Drives: orange car
Location: slovenia
Posts: 37
Thanks: 20
Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I think baro sensor is not needed as turbo will compensate for lower air density so the loss of power will be much less noticable with turbo then with NA. You could run only one map optimized for the altitude that you spend the most time at.
If you are happy with the NA power at sea altitude I would suggest you take any of the turbo kits available and keep the boost low.
You would want most efficient turbo as altitude change will make your turbo work harder but at low psi I think any turbo kit would work.

Write to your tuner or Delicious tuning or CSG. I reckon they will give you some professional info.

Happy boosting
RIĐO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 03:55 PM   #4
DesertLava
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: '17 Hot Lava
Location: California
Posts: 55
Thanks: 22
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
4000 feet is not much; we often track at that elevation.

Both SC and TC setups will have no issue at that elevation. Turbos will spool significantly slower, but ultimately have the same output. A SC will lose output with elevation. MAPs are universally required for both SC and TC setups for any modern tune.

It sounds like you're pretty set on a turbo.

PM me to order.
If I swap out my pulleys for max power @4000ft then what happens when I go to sea level? Won't I chance exploding my engine? I don't fancy the idea of changing my pulleys twice daily.

I want the most reliable set up possible, SC or turbo I am open to. I just need more knowledge. I defer that to your expertise. I candidly prefer an SC but I've read that if I optimize my setup for the higher elevation, it may stress the engine at sea level, is that true? What is your experience with turbos at altitude?

4000ft is certainly not 6000ft, but I lose about 14% peak horsepower at 4000ft (NA). At 6000ft you stand to lose ~24% (NA). I want to minimize losses due to elevation and increase reliability.

Could you recommend a turbo kit and a comparable SC for me? And which supporting mods will be necessary for both. I'm not looking for anything past stage 1 gains. More of just a small bump and then maintenance/consistency through elevation changes.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
DesertLava is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 04:36 PM   #5
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 12,760
Thanks: 7,912
Thanked 12,368 Times in 5,903 Posts
Mentioned: 867 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertLava View Post
If I swap out my pulleys for max power @4000ft then what happens when I go to sea level? Won't I chance exploding my engine? I don't fancy the idea of changing my pulleys twice daily.

I want the most reliable set up possible, SC or turbo I am open to. I just need more knowledge. I defer that to your expertise. I candidly prefer an SC but I've read that if I optimize my setup for the higher elevation, it may stress the engine at sea level, is that true? What is your experience with turbos at altitude?

4000ft is certainly not 6000ft, but I lose about 14% peak horsepower at 4000ft (NA). At 6000ft you stand to lose ~24% (NA). I want to minimize losses due to elevation and increase reliability.

Could you recommend a turbo kit and a comparable SC for me? And which supporting mods will be necessary for both. I'm not looking for anything past stage 1 gains. More of just a small bump and then maintenance/consistency through elevation changes.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
You're overthinking it.

For your goals, all you literally need is a bolt-on kit and tune. If you're ONLY staying at 4000 feet, then you optimize for that. In your case, since you're coming down the mountain every day, you optimize for sea level.

PM me for options.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 08:01 PM   #6
Jmonty
Realtor/ Principal Broker
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Drives: JRSC BRZ GBS LTD 2010 LTD Outback
Location: Salem Oregon
Posts: 896
Thanks: 802
Thanked 218 Times in 178 Posts
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Or run two different maps, sea level and a second map for the elevation?
Jmonty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 08:34 PM   #7
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 12,760
Thanks: 7,912
Thanked 12,368 Times in 5,903 Posts
Mentioned: 867 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmonty View Post
Or run two different maps, sea level and a second map for the elevation?
A sea level map will work just fine at 4000 feet! The loss of power is from elevation, not from a tuning change. Optimizing for 4000 feet would be running a smaller pulley on the supercharger, but would mean it will "boost more" or overboost, at sea level.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 08:39 PM   #8
DesertLava
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: '17 Hot Lava
Location: California
Posts: 55
Thanks: 22
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
A sea level map will work just fine at 4000 feet! The loss of power is from elevation, not from a tuning change. Optimizing for 4000 feet would be running a smaller pulley on the supercharger, but would mean it will "boost more" or overboost, at sea level.
With a sea level map at 4000ft, how much less power will I make then a map tuned for peak power at 4000ft?

With a turbo, there is an absolute amount of boost created in total. It will always boost the same, but I will experience more lag at altitude than with a supercharger? How much lag are we talking about? Spooling up a minimal amount of boost wouldn't be that noticeable, would it?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
DesertLava is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 08:42 PM   #9
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 12,760
Thanks: 7,912
Thanked 12,368 Times in 5,903 Posts
Mentioned: 867 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertLava View Post
With a sea level map at 4000ft, how much less power will I make then a map tuned for peak power at 4000ft?

With a turbo, there is an absolute amount of boost created in total. It will always boost the same, but I will experience more lag at altitude than with a supercharger? How much lag are we talking about? Spooling up a minimal amount of boost wouldn't be that noticeable, would it?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
less dense air to compress = takes more time and effort to spool.

Even a turbo may not be able to deliver full boost when the air is not dense enough.

Turbo spoolup is always going to be noticeable; it's physics and cannot be avoided. Anyone who says they have zero turbo lag with their turbo setup is either oblivious, or delusional.

My advice stays the same as above; get a bolt-on kit and tune, and if you still want more power, address it at that time.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
gtengr (02-26-2018), Irace86.2.0 (02-25-2018), sid94 (02-25-2018), Tcoat (02-26-2018), ThatAsianBradah (02-26-2018)
Old 02-25-2018, 08:45 PM   #10
DesertLava
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: '17 Hot Lava
Location: California
Posts: 55
Thanks: 22
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
By bolt on you're referring to SC? I'm local to you guys. I'm in SoCal.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
DesertLava is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 08:45 PM   #11
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
Posts: 2,553
Thanks: 1,592
Thanked 1,156 Times in 772 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
It is funny...I just posted this video in another thread then I saw this one. Seems like the altitude was effecting the power on the supercharged car considerably. I don't know if it was because the car was tuned at sea level, if that matters. Seems like E85 would be good to use at altitude with FI.

Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
DesertLava (02-25-2018)
Old 02-25-2018, 08:49 PM   #12
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 12,760
Thanks: 7,912
Thanked 12,368 Times in 5,903 Posts
Mentioned: 867 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertLava View Post
By bolt on you're referring to SC? I'm local to you guys. I'm in SoCal.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I would consider both turbo and supercharger setups bolt-on. By bolt-on, I mean something relatively simple, e.g. the kit itself, and a tune.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 08:50 PM   #13
DesertLava
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: '17 Hot Lava
Location: California
Posts: 55
Thanks: 22
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
It is funny...I just posted this video in another thread then I saw this one. Seems like the altitude was effecting the power on the supercharged car considerably. I don't know if it was because the car was tuned at sea level, if that matters. Seems like E85 would be good to use at altitude with FI.

Supercharged vs Tuned - Long Term FRS (GT86) #5 - Everyday Driver - YouTube
There must be a reason planes use turbochargers and not superchargers. I think I'm going to go with a turbo. I know that SC is a lot more popular for our platform but turbo fits my needs better. I just don't know the go to brands for turbo kits for this car.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
DesertLava is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 08:53 PM   #14
DesertLava
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: '17 Hot Lava
Location: California
Posts: 55
Thanks: 22
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
I would consider both turbo and supercharger setups bolt-on. By bolt-on, I mean something relatively simple, e.g. the kit itself, and a tune.
I see, would it be wise to get an oil cooler regardless of which route I go? I will be driving spiritedly during my commute. Not auto cross level of abuse, but prolonged 4-6k rpm for about an hour. Also a catch can?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
DesertLava is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
does OFT have a specific tune for any catted header? frs_caskey Software Tuning 48 11-17-2017 04:15 PM
OFH OFT Tune Octane Specific GVegas Software Tuning 2 04-18-2017 08:16 PM
Help selecting Coilovers, for my needs :) Mikeez Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 83 12-14-2014 04:58 PM
Need help Selecting a Body kit ImpressiveWrap Southern California 6 12-16-2013 06:20 PM
Selecting new wheel help Biggdogg Wheels | Tires | Spacers | Hub -- Sponsored by The Tire Rack 8 05-15-2013 07:13 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.