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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 12-02-2015, 04:05 PM   #57
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With equal mods and swapping headers, do you really think there will be a dramatic impact with the $1000 header? A big part of it might be eliminating the cat which exists in both.
Leading (top of the line) UEL vs Ace. All tuned by the same tuner, on the same dyno, to the same extent, on the same car (yeah, we spent time tuning on quite a few headers just to compare).

This is with a OEM front pipe and OEM exhaust. Everything on the powertrain for the car is stock, except for the header/overpipe combo, @Jackson Racing oil cooler, and a @DeliciousTuning Flex Fuel kit.



- Orange - ACE 4-2-1 E70
- Red - ACE 4-2-1 ACN 91
- Purple - UEL + OP E70
- Blue - UEL + OP ACN 91
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Old 12-02-2015, 08:02 PM   #58
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Everyone has their own thoughts/goals/opinions on this. I'm personally not trying to pinch every last NA hp/tq/powerband etc out of my car that I can. I don't go to the track or anything, it's a daily driver.

At the end of the day with even with the best NA bolt-ons that money can buy, it's still a <= ~200whp (on gasoline) car. So I am ok with buying a $200 header, it gives me good readings on the butt dyno and rumbles. I would never spend $1000 on a header, I would put it towards a FI setup if I cared that much for power.
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Old 12-03-2015, 01:40 PM   #59
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Everyone has their own thoughts/goals/opinions on this. I'm personally not trying to pinch every last NA hp/tq/powerband etc out of my car that I can. I don't go to the track or anything, it's a daily driver.

At the end of the day with even with the best NA bolt-ons that money can buy, it's still a <= ~200whp (on gasoline) car. So I am ok with buying a $200 header, it gives me good readings on the butt dyno and rumbles. I would never spend $1000 on a header, I would put it towards a FI setup if I cared that much for power.
What if I told you that the header + tune makes more power than a Phantom ESC (which can't sustain the power anyways), and makes more power than a Sprintex/Innovate that is heat soaked?
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Old 12-10-2015, 09:55 PM   #60
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What if I told you that the header + tune makes more power than a Phantom ESC (which can't sustain the power anyways), and makes more power than a Sprintex/Innovate that is heat soaked?
I don't think that is very impressive. Don't supercharged BRZ's make 240-250 whp on a good day, not heat soaked?

What is the max possible power output that header A can have over header B running equivalent tunes? At the end of the day, they are both a set of pipes of relatively equal diameter and length. Sure, the bends and lengths can vary between the two, but I don't think one will have a notable amount of power over the other. I understand they will have slightly different power bands, but to me it doesn't justify paying $1000 for one when I can have the other for, in this case, $288.

When you pay $1000 or more for a header thinking you will get more output, it's like trying to squeeze water from a rock. If you're willing to spend that amount money for a small return on investment, spend it on FI which will actually get you power.
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:11 PM   #61
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I don't think that is very impressive. Don't supercharged BRZ's make 240-250 whp on a good day, not heat soaked?

What is the max possible power output that header A can have over header B running equivalent tunes? At the end of the day, they are both a set of pipes of relatively equal diameter and length. Sure, the bends and lengths can vary between the two, but I don't think one will have a notable amount of power over the other. I understand they will have slightly different power bands, but to me it doesn't justify paying $1000 for one when I can have the other for, in this case, $288.

When you pay $1000 or more for a header thinking you will get more output, it's like trying to squeeze water from a rock. If you're willing to spend that amount money for a small return on investment, spend it on FI which will actually get you power.
You're looking at just the peak, not the area.

If you're comping peak vs peak, then it may not look like much. When you compare the maximum delta, an the delta across the entire powerband, it suddenly becomes much, much larger.

If a header is just a collection of pipes to you, then the cheaper header is definitely the right option for you
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:13 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by B-R-Z View Post

When you pay $1000 or more for a header thinking you will get more output, it's like trying to squeeze water from a rock. If you're willing to spend that amount money for a small return on investment, spend it on FI which will actually get you power.
That's just it (the big picture everyone is missing here): when going N/A, you get increasingly diminishing returns the more power you try to make. Every extra HP (or fraction of) will cost exponentially more.

The goal should be kept in mind when discussing these things.

If one wants budget-friendly mods, either do basic bolt-ons (and keep it at that) or go forced induction. There really is no need to compare high end N/A builds with FI builds that can make more power for less.

Apples to oranges.

-alex
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:14 PM   #63
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If a header is just a collection of pipes to you, then the cheaper header is definitely the right option for you
Some people view wheels and tires as just "rubber on a metal rotating thing", too...
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:20 PM   #64
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I understand what you're saying, Mike. But to me, having smidgens of extra power at different parts of my power band doesn't justify paying 4x the price. If I was getting gobs of power at different parts of the power band then that would be a different story.

I agree with you, alex. If a person wants to chase 3.62 hp for an extra $712 then that is their decision.
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:23 PM   #65
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What if I told you that the header + tune makes more power than a Phantom ESC (which can't sustain the power anyways), and makes more power than a Sprintex/Innovate that is heat soaked?
Wait... i thought ESC make 220 at the wheels doe?
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Old 12-10-2015, 11:13 PM   #66
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Shit got interested, carry on
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Old 12-11-2015, 01:10 AM   #67
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Wait... i thought ESC make 220 at the wheels doe?
Here's an overlay. Both cars on the same dyno.



Higher numbers:

Phantom ESC 24v v2.0 + UEL + e85
OpenFlashTablet - OTS tune. PROcede controller.
TRD Drop-in filter (dirty)
CNT UEL Header (el-cheapo, but it does its' job, for now)
Ultimate Racing resonated FP/OP combo 2.75"
TRD USA Catback

Lower numbers:

Ace header
Ace front pipe
E70

Now... how much of the higher dyno is header, how much is E85, and how much is the Phantom? A JRSC + e85 + header on this dyno will make well over 320, and JRSC + Ace + E85 cars have made 380+.

Alternatively, you could say Ace + 91 + tune makes 50% of the gains of Phantom + header + E85 + tune.
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Old 12-11-2015, 04:37 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Here's an overlay. Both cars on the same dyno.



Higher numbers:

Phantom ESC 24v v2.0 + UEL + e85
OpenFlashTablet - OTS tune. PROcede controller.
TRD Drop-in filter (dirty)
CNT UEL Header (el-cheapo, but it does its' job, for now)
Ultimate Racing resonated FP/OP combo 2.75"
TRD USA Catback

Lower numbers:

Ace header
Ace front pipe
E70

Now... how much of the higher dyno is header, how much is E85, and how much is the Phantom? A JRSC + e85 + header on this dyno will make well over 320, and JRSC + Ace + E85 cars have made 380+.

Alternatively, you could say Ace + 91 + tune makes 50% of the gains of Phantom + header + E85 + tune.
I thought you said the header + tune makes more power than the ESC?
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Old 12-11-2015, 08:31 AM   #69
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You're trying to say brand A header makes 60+ more hp than brand B? How do you define well over 320, that could be 379 :P.

Is this your hypothesis or do you have actual documentation?
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Old 12-11-2015, 08:22 PM   #70
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We have hypothementation.


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