The $25k daily driver challenge - multi car review inside

[edboc]

I've driven all of the cars on your list except the Civic SI. I would agree about the WRX, it's definately the fastest car in your group, the biggest problem I had with it was the noisy exhaust, it gave me headaches. The GTI is very sporty on the road, but not so great on the track/autocross. The MS3 clutch is way too heavy, and the nav screen is way too small. My biggest issue with the Recaros on the Focus ST was that my thighs are too wide, it's extremely uncomfortable, I'd just get the ST1 with a moonroof. Contrast that with the FR-s seats, which are pretty much perfect in terms of comfort and position.

[Ganthrithor]

I disagree about the brakes being terrible. They won't hold up to track duty (but not many stock brakes will), but the pedal feel is good and they're not grabby. I've done basically all my driving in the mountains and I haven't had them fade on me yet on the road (although granted, that probably has as much to do with how much speed the car can carry through corners as it does their heat-dissipating abilities).

I haven't driven any of the other cars you drove, because I knew I was looking for something RWD after coming out of a GTI and being bored with FWD, but it's always cool to read peoples' impressions of vehicles. Nice post. But yeah, RWD. There really isn't a substitute for it.

I'd test drive some used RWD things as well if I were you. Bring on the older BMWs as Porsches if you ask me... and if you can afford the maintenance.

As far as FR-S vs BRZ... well you can see which way I went. I may be biased, but imho the nicer interior, better lights and better-looking front-end are worth the money. The FR-S is apparently more tail-happy from the factory, but making suspension changes to a BRZ would cost less than trying to bring the FR-S up to BRZ trim-levels.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

I haven't driven any of the other cars you drove, because I knew I was looking for something RWD after coming out of a GTI and being bored with FWD, but it's always cool to read peoples' impressions of vehicles. Nice post. But yeah, RWD. There really isn't a substitute for it.

I don't care if a car is front wheel drive or rear wheel drive. A fun car is a fun car, I don't think about which tires are being driven nor do I expect it to behave in a specific manner - if it drives well and is fun, then I like it. It's easy to regurgitate professional opinion, it's easy to WANT it to be rear wheel drive for the image (to other car enthusiasts or initial d fans), but unless you drive the cars - you'll never know what does how. A 2004 Porsche 911 drives nothing like a 2011 Corvette which drives nothing like an 1999 S2000 which drives nothing like a 1999 Miata which drives nothing like a 2006 325i which drives nothing like a 2005 Nissan Titan which drives nothing like a 2003 Nissan Frontier. All cars (and trucks) I've put on thousands of miles on. It simply doesn't matter, if you like cars you owe it yourself to try what's out there and not get prejudiced by which wheels are driven.

My definition of a fun car doesn't correlate to having it's rear end step out. That was not something you wanted going on with the 911. One of the most fun cars I've driven is a 197x rusted to all hell VW Bug. It wasn't fast, it wasn't safe, it wasn't comfortable but it sure as hell was fun. Fun manifests itself in different ways for different cars. It was fun blasting around the Nurburgring in a Suzuki Swift catching up to M3's and other performance cars with a measly 130 hp engine. It's fun if a car is comfortable enough to go road tripping with 4 other friends up to Vegas singing along to the radio.

The FRS is fun but the Focus ST proves the fun isn't about which wheels are driven. I find them both to be equally as fun to drive and would give the slight edge to the ST because of the better power delivery.

Feel free to disagree.

[bcj]

I prefer the FR-S interior options. The radio will go eventually, no reason to get a hobbled (iPhone only) luxo head unit.

Seats are very good in minimum trim. If it had roll up windows I'd be much more pleased. Electro-everything gets up my nose.
Move the seats if they're in the wrong place. Don't need stuff to do it for me.

The back seat pass through gets excellent ratings from me. Brought a 150lb. box of floor jack up from Portland this weekend.
With judicious bracing it didn't shift at all and traveled the back roads well.
It's a bit louder with the seat down though. I won't mind adding some dyna-mat eventually.

[chulooz]

The BRZ can get keyless entry, push2start, HIDs, attractive climate control, leather, and nav to name a few things. Plus all the warranty work is done by people who are accustom with Subaru. Get out and give a BRZ limited a nice groping and see what you think.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

I don't care if a car is front wheel drive or rear wheel drive. A fun car is a fun car, I don't think about which tires are being driven nor do I expect it to behave in a specific manner - if it drives well and is fun, then I like it. It's easy to regurgitate professional opinion, it's easy to WANT it to be rear wheel drive for the image (to other car enthusiasts or initial d fans), but unless you drive the cars - you'll never know what does how. A 2004 Porsche 911 drives nothing like a 2011 Corvette which drives nothing like an 1999 S2000 which drives nothing like a 1999 Miata which drives nothing like a 2006 325i which drives nothing like a 2005 Nissan Titan which drives nothing like a 2003 Nissan Frontier. All cars (and trucks) I've put on thousands of miles on. It simply doesn't matter, if you like cars you owe it yourself to try what's out there and not get prejudiced by which wheels are driven.

My definition of a fun car doesn't correlate to having it's rear end step out. That was not something you wanted going on with the 911. One of the most fun cars I've driven is a 197x rusted to all hell VW Bug. It wasn't fast, it wasn't safe, it wasn't comfortable but it sure as hell was fun. Fun manifests itself in different ways for different cars. It was fun blasting around the Nurburgring in a Suzuki Swift catching up to M3's and other performance cars with a measly 130 hp engine. It's fun if a car is comfortable enough to go road tripping with 4 other friends up to Vegas singing along to the radio.

The FRS is fun but the Focus ST proves the fun isn't about which wheels are driven. I find them both to be equally as fun to drive and would give the slight edge to the ST because of the better power delivery.

Feel free to disagree.

I don't disagree, which is why I prefaced what I said with pointing out that I hadn't driven the cars you drove.

Personally I've driven a decent cross-section of cars and have always found myself enjoying RWD cars more-- my idea of a fun car is one where the rear end can step out (incidentally, one of the most fun experiences of my life was sliding a 911 sideways around a cone course). I know FWD cars can be made to oversteer, but it wasn't really possible at all in my GTI.

I really enjoy feeling out the limits of traction, and I love cars that you can get turned in and then play with the throttle until the rear end starts squirming a bit. It's addictive. So for me, there's no replacement for RWD

And don't get me wrong, I'm not "that guy" who thinks only fast cars are cool. One of my favorite cars to drive hard is my family's '91 Previa-- it's extremely rewarding to drive properly and you can drive right on the limit while only doing ~25mph through corners. It's way more fun than it should be. It would be even more fun if it didn't run out of brakes after about 8 corners, but I digress...

[thill]

The GTI interior trim and features, to me, were head and shoulders above all the cars you listed. That said, it will take me a long time to buy another VW (owned two and both were very unreliable and dealers were a royal pain). I love tech as well, but was not a big fan at all of the MyFord touch system.

I actually thought the brakes in the FR-S were solid. The seats were great. I felt the car was underpowered and I was disappointed in the lack of tech options. That said, of all the cars you listed, the FR-S would have been at the top of the list for me too. Unless you actually expet to use the backseat. They are, of all the cars listed, the most useless backseat of the lot.

[radroach]

about your assessment of the brakes on fr-s: "The brakes are terrible", you have to really give them a really quick, hard push to get any performance out of them, they fade fast if you brake too long and easy

[Tromatic]

So don't buy the BRZ/FR-S then, problem solved. You seem to dislike some of the very things this car was specifically designed to do.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by radroach

about your assessment of the brakes on fr-s: "The brakes are terrible", you have to really give them a really quick, hard push to get any performance out of them, they fade fast if you brake too long and easy

Interesting, I'd never heard that before. Looking forward to trying it out. Again, I'm sure the brakes do a perfectly fine job of stopping the car. I don't doubt the numbers but the pedal feel wasn't up to par with what I was expecting nor was it as good as the competitors.

One thing I didn't mention because it's an issue in all the cars I test drove - the clutch pedal is a unreal. It's laughably light and offers little resistance. When you think about how many points of communication give haptic feedback to the driver in a car in motion there aren't many: steering wheel, shifter, seat, gas pedal, brake pedal, and clutch pedal. The first four are great, the fifth is disappointing considering its company and the sixth is a joke. A few more pounds of resistance wouldn't kill the ease of operation and it'd further enhance that visceral sports car experience. But because it's a problem with every new car, making compromises for folks sitting in traffic, I'll give it a pass and not mention it till now. The brakes, however, don't earn that excuse.

Originally Posted by Tromatic

So don't buy the BRZ/FR-S then, problem solved. You seem to dislike some of the very things this car was specifically designed to do.

That's a bit extreme. Cars at this price point aren't going to be perfect and I have every right to criticize something I don't like about a product as a potential buyer, regardless if I'm going to own it or not. Jump into the Suspension/Chassis/Brakes or Tracking/Autocross/HPDE subforum's and you'll see plenty of threads about the poor brake feel and remedies for it (the aforementioned lines, fluid and master cylinder brace being a quick and inexpensive fix). The engine is a bit of a dog, especially when you compare it to its competitors. It gets mediocre gas mileage for the numbers, it isn't as serviceable friendly as a traditional inline (need to double up on parts), it doesn't make a particularly pleasant sound, and it can be arguably said half-baked with the torque dip design flaw!

That doesn't mean I dislike the car. I can appreciate something holistically and still nit pick the individual components.

I don't know where you gleaned my dislike for the cars intentions. I think it's a lot of fun to drive and for the price, does the best job of convincing me I'm in a dedicated sports car while still giving me some practicality. If I could afford it responsibly I'd be test driving a new Cayman S right now. I don't buy into the circle jerk mentality when constructive criticisms lead to better product feedback. Just defending/justifying my points.

As of right now, I'm leaning more towards the BRZ Premium and will be giving Clint in Colorado a call soon to inquire about setting up a purchase, as SoCal prices are still through the roof with mark ups. Funny enough, I've already committed to buying a set of under panels in a SoCal group buy! That should give you some indication of how much I adore the car. Flaws and all.

:happy0180:

[Re_Invention]

I also wanted to add, this has been a great forum and positive community and I appreciate the discussion. I know I'm in a unique situation compared to many other members here; I'm shopping for a car and will be objective vs learning to love/accepting (what may be to some) small issues with a car. I haven't invested emotionally of financially into anything yet.

That being said, a positive community for a particular brand/model can definitely make the ownership an enjoyable one. Having followed this car for coming up 6 years is definitely influencing some of the decision - as much as I hate to admit it.

You guys and gals are good folk and I'm looking forward to participating for while to come. Including the inevitable disagreements and forum bickering.

:happy0180:

[BlueSTaR]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

So don't buy the BRZ/FR-S then, problem solved. You seem to dislike some of the very things this car was specifically designed to do.

Lol I read the post and I felt the OP is just here to troll

[Tromatic]

One of the "circle jerk" reviewers described them as a half-price Lotus, and his main complaint was the engine. Yours is the harshest critcism of these cars I've read, not including that dolt who thinks the 300 is the best car ever.

I find myself looking forward to driving the FR-S more than I doing riding my motorcycle.

The fact that Clarkson likes it seals the deal. It is what it is, and I have no desire to spend money to make it somethinge else. It's like learning to ride on a small bike. You learn to go fast despite it's shortcomings, which only makes you better as a driver.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

One of the "circle jerk" reviewers described them as a half-price Lotus, and his main complaint was the engine. Yours is the harshest critcism of these cars I've read, not including that dolt who thinks the 300 is the best car ever.

I find myself looking forward to driving the FR-S more than I doing riding my motorcycle.

The fact that Clarkson likes it seals the deal. It is what it is, and I have no desire to spend money to make it somethinge else. It's like learning to ride on a small bike. You learn to go fast despite it's shortcomings, which only makes you better as a driver.

I wasn't going to respond to this initially but feel the need to defend my transparency as you come off defending yourself, as well. I'm not making money through advertisements or endorsements of any kind, this isn't linked to a blog to drum up site traffic or anything of that matter. I enjoy reading other peoples driving impressions and wanted to put my own out. Simple as that.

Maybe folks are just reading into it as they want and pull out the critical remarks?

As entertaining as Clarkson is, he isn't the gospel and I could care less what he endorses. I've driven the cars and the competitors and have used my own judgement. I'm the one spending money on it!

My being critical isn't a trolling tactic and I don't see anything in my posts that would even allude to that register. This is a car forum, a subforum specifically about the Toyobaru versus others cars, it's not the general FRS/BRZ subforum.

Motorcycling is a whole different can of worms. And no thanks, I'd prefer to ride my VFR vs a 300cc Ninja. Nor do I see how me becoming a "faster driver" makes the car's flaws go away or is pertinent to my decision to purchase the car. That... what kind of logic is that?!.. I don't see how that is a factor, at all. A Honda Fit is a slower car, does that make it a better buy to learn to be a faster driver in? Same thing; I wouldn't buy a miata because it's slow - I'd buy it because it's fun.

As well, I never once mentioned track use of the car. You're interjecting a factor that isn't pertinent to anything in the thread. But now that you did, let's make it relevant with some shameless bragging. I did put in a request for this bad boy in October;



Can't wait