The need for an oil cooler when going FI (Temperature Data Inside)

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Actually he specifically said "most engine internals are the similar these days" and in that context was comparing FRS internals to a Porsche NA track car.

He only said that after you pushed the conversation to comparing engine internals. The comment ("Are you comparing Porsche engine internals versus an FRS? lolz") is specifically what I was referring to.

Ironsquid said:

I'm seeing about 215F in 90F mountain driving and about 220F in 95F Florida during autoX.

I'll be at Sebring in June, should be fun, but I'm not worried about oil temps.

The Porsche guys are closer to 275F on the track.

Synthetic oil has come a long way.

This is referring to temperatures, with no reference to engine internals, which is not relevant to this topic.

[Sniper2606]

[spitfire481]

So my Gti should have died way before I parted it out then? I had a 5858 oil fed only Turbo on a 2.8 6 cylinder VW engine with 10.5:1 compression for 4 years with nothing but the factory oiling system. No added coolers what so ever minus the intercooler. OEM Rad as well. I never had one issue with that car and it made over 400whp. Over double the factory output. I think its a little broad of a statement to say that adding a Turbo without additional oil cooling for it will kill the engine or Turbo itself. Hell, I've never seen a VW person add an oil cooler. Even the 900hp vr6 drag/street car we run has stock oiling and cooling.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by AllDayJonRay

You're confusing the role of engine oil. Engine oil's role is lubrication, first and foremost.



Hot oil will not kill your turbo. Boiling/burning oil, or oil that has lost its lubricant properties, will kill your turbo. None of this is happening to oil that is constantly circulating past your bearings (whether your crank journals or turbocharger) at 240-270*.

While I understand what you're saying, this is really bad info man sorry. Higher temperatures whether static or flowing will cause damage.

Anyway, I think everyone needs to consider the repercussions of a turbo kit on these cars for the long term, whether it be racing or daily driving. I don't sell Speed by Design and it makes no difference to me. I'm trying to give peoe a heads up based on a lot of past experiences I've dealt with on my own cars and 100's of customer cars.

For example, the Ralliart I drive is turbocharged and Mitsu cheaped out and didn't put an oil cooler. Albeit these cars run at 20-24psi, I've had at least 10 busted turbos and a handful of lifted head gaskets because of oil temps getting way too high.

I just don't want people to have problems long term and an oil cooler is really a no brainer when it comes to turbocharging.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by spitfire481

So my Gti should have died way before I parted it out then? I had a 5858 oil fed only Turbo on a 2.8 6 cylinder VW engine with 10.5:1 compression for 4 years with nothing but the factory oiling system. No added coolers what so ever minus the intercooler. OEM Rad as well. I never had one issue with that car and it made over 400whp. Over double the factory output. I think its a little broad of a statement to say that adding a Turbo without additional oil cooling for it will kill the engine or Turbo itself. Hell, I've never seen a VW person add an oil cooler. Even the 900hp vr6 drag/street car we run has stock oiling and cooling.

Aren't the lines on those passed through a sandwich plate that is water cooled? OEM comes cooled just not with a traditional cooler. The FRS has none at all, not even the water cooled type

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

While I understand what you're saying, this is really bad info man sorry. Higher temperatures whether static or flowing will cause damage.

Anyway, I think everyone needs to consider the repercussions of a turbo kit on these cars for the long term, whether it be racing or daily driving. I don't sell Speed by Design and it makes no difference to me. I'm trying to give peoe a heads up based on a lot of past experiences I've dealt with on my own cars and 100's of customer cars.

For example, the Ralliart I drive is turbocharged and Mitsu cheaped out and didn't put an oil cooler. Albeit these cars run at 20-24psi, I've had at least 10 busted turbos and a handful of lifted head gaskets because of oil temps getting way too high.

I just don't want people to have problems long term and an oil cooler is really a no brainer when it comes to turbocharging.

I don't see the correlation between boost pressure and oil temps, but if you've busted 10+ turbos, then the cause of the problem hasn't been addressed.


I run my personal car with 260-280F oil temps, and have yet to have an oil related failure. In fact, I have an oil analysis for every single oil change on my car, showing that I'm doing just fine with those temps. I even run 10k oil change intervals. Of course, YMMV.

[spitfire481]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Aren't the lines on those passed through a sandwich plate that is water cooled? OEM comes cooled just not with a traditional cooler. The FRS has none at all, not even the water cooled type

You are correct about that on my car. Its been a while. The sandwich plate is tiny, probably about what the forester plate is. The drag/street car has not had one since 2005

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I don't see the correlation between boost pressure and oil temps, but if you've busted 10+ turbos, then the cause of the problem hasn't been addressed.


I run my personal car with 260-280F oil temps, and have yet to have an oil related failure. In fact, I have an oil analysis for every single oil change on my car, showing that I'm doing just fine with those temps. I even run 10k oil change intervals. Of course, YMMV.

*customers cars, I have never busted a turbo because I run a cooler

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by spitfire481

You are correct about that on my car. Its been a while. The sandwich plate is tiny, probably about what the forester plate is. The drag/street car has not had one since 2005

Ya the VW OEM cooling system was really good. Ze Germans, they know. I've only had a few R32's upgrade or run twin OEM. Nonetheless, there's still a cooling system, it's just not a traditional cooler core.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I don't see the correlation between boost pressure and oil temps, but if you've busted 10+ turbos, then the cause of the problem hasn't been addressed.


I run my personal car with 260-280F oil temps, and have yet to have an oil related failure. In fact, I have an oil analysis for every single oil change on my car, showing that I'm doing just fine with those temps. I even run 10k oil change intervals. Of course, YMMV.

Isn't your car basically stock? You don't have a turbo correct?


Also, once again not worried about oil degradation lol. Worried about longevity of the turbo (especially a smaller one like a 20g that produces a pretty substantial amount of heat). Overtime, turbo seals can go and it's a really annoying ordeal to get repaired or replaced

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Isn't your car basically stock? You don't have a turbo correct?


Also, once again not worried about oil degradation lol. Worried about longevity of the turbo (especially a smaller one like a 20g that produces a pretty substantial amount of heat). Overtime, turbo seals can go and it's a really annoying ordeal to get repaired or replaced

Aren't we talking about the oil temp's effects on engine internals/longevity, not the source of the heat?

The point is that I run my own car far hotter than what you claim is safe.

Yes, my engine is currently stock. Down to the 13.6:1 AFRs, which most would consider unsafe.

Regardless, the FA20 does reduce output with high oil temps, and IMO, every FA20 should have an oil cooler, even NA.

[OrbitalEllipses]

What does lifting heads have to do with oil temp - that's purely a boost issue...

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Aren't we talking about the oil temp's effects on engine internals/longevity, not the source of the heat?

The point is that I run my own car far hotter than what you claim is safe.

I noticed you edited your post so I quoted what you originally said, I noticed you changed your opinion lol

No, my point (I've said it quite a few times also -- even in caps!) is the longevity of the turbo and preventing excessively hot oil from potentially causing damaged to the turbo seals as well as higher oil pressure (higher temp equals higher pressure equals potential for lifted head)

I claim that controlling the temperature for guys not changing and analyzing their oil after every track event should ensure that they don't run unnecessarily hot oil temps.

Like I said (also for the 10th time), I firmly believe that an oil cooler is an essential mod for this car (while of course monitoring temps to ensure they are always optimal -- no cold runs or pulls) if you are going turbo.


PS: Oil temps increase with higher boost (in reply to your other post). A 10psi application versus a 25psi will have vastly different internal cartridge temps

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Aren't we talking about the oil temp's effects on engine internals/longevity, not the source of the heat?

The point is that I run my own car far hotter than what you claim is safe.

Yes, my engine is currently stock. Down to the 13.6:1 AFRs, which most would consider unsafe.

Regardless, the FA20 does reduce output with high oil temps, and IMO, every FA20 should have an oil cooler, even NA.

I gotta say man, that's a knifes edge setup. Since you have a pretty serious track car and seat time, you really might want to look at changing that up. I feel like long-term you'll have issues. I guess the advantage is you change the oil A LOT but still man, 13+ AFR and 270F temps sound like a bad mix