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BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe


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Old 05-02-2013, 04:21 PM   #197
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Do we really care what some magazine says?
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:06 PM   #198
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not too worried about that review. I've swooped by all GTi's I met at the track.

Here's one of them...
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:09 PM   #199
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Do we really care what some magazine says?
No. /thread
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:44 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Don't be ridiculous, this car doesn't need much modification to handle an additional 75-100 hp. Certainly not 10-15k more (6-7k more like it).
I was talking about the entire cost of obtaining 275-300hp from the factory.

A turbo kit + tuning + emissions + reliability + warranty is at least 10k.

Bigger brakes, stickier tires, wider wheels, beefier transmission and other things a car company would have to do to legally sell the car, and you're between 10-15k on top of what the car already sells for.

---

Yes, just slap on a turbo kit, and that's around 6-7k including tuning and installation.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:30 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by faz1 View Post
Sorry guys, scanners packed up!

The general opinion behind all four articles is that the BRZ was great when driving at 10 10ths but average everywhere else.
New GTI looking better and better LOL... over 100 more torques...

Last edited by Sport-Tech; 05-03-2013 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:46 AM   #202
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haha...that's a BRZ though. I am sure the FRS will do better.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:29 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86'd View Post
I was talking about the entire cost of obtaining 275-300hp from the factory.

A turbo kit + tuning + emissions + reliability + warranty is at least 10k.

Bigger brakes, stickier tires, wider wheels, beefier transmission and other things a car company would have to do to legally sell the car, and you're between 10-15k on top of what the car already sells for.

---

Yes, just slap on a turbo kit, and that's around 6-7k including tuning and installation.

-marginally bigger brakes cost the manufacturer...close to nothing
-wheels 1-1.5" wider cost the manufacturer...close to nothing
-more performance based tires cost the manufacturer...not much

Beefing up the transmission and all related forced induction equipment costs money yes, but not much more in the long run. A Porsche Cayman S costs roughly $10k more than a base Cayman. And for that $10k you're getting considerably upgraded brakes, suspension, a larger engine, different transmission and a few other options. Porsche has ridiculous amounts of profit built into their pricing and yet you're telling me that Subaru can't pull off an upgrade for less than $10-15k...even more than what Porsche does?

You gotta be kidding me.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:41 AM   #204
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New GTI looking better and better LOL... over 100 more torques...
Just curious, have you driven a GTI yet (mk6 even)? If you're expecting it to drive like a BRZ except with 100 lbs-ft additional torque, you're going to be disappointed. Very different car.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:57 AM   #205
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Just curious, have you driven a GTI yet (mk6 even)? If you're expecting it to drive like a BRZ except with 100 lbs-ft additional torque, you're going to be disappointed. Very different car.
Being in NA, no I have not driven the MK7 with that trick new LSD--and given the handling transformation it bestows on the GTI according to all the reviewers, driving a MK6 isn't going to tell me much about it.

Obviously there will be differences jumping from a BRZ into a MK7, just as there were between the BRZ and the Megane in the Evo review - but the Megane won the drive-off. And there seems to be (based on those early reviews) a reasonable chance the MK7 will be as good as the Megane.

Ironically, the weakness of the MK7 from Evo's perspective may turn out to be the same as the BRZ's - it's so highly capable and stable that it is a bit boring to drive at anything less than balls-to-the-wall pace. At least it would be a more comfortable, relaxing, and refined boredom! But then again it won't have that torque deficit Evo complained about in the BRZ, so its greater power out of the corners will be an advantage... definitely not the car for the drift crowd of course.

I really wish it were here sooner, don't know if I want to wait a year for a MK7 test drive...

Last edited by Sport-Tech; 05-03-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:23 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Sport-Tech View Post
Being in NA, no I have not driven the MK7 with that trick new LSD--and given the handling transformation it bestows on the GTI according to all the reviewers, driving a MK6 isn't going to tell me much about it.

Obviously there will be differences jumping from a BRZ into a MK7, just as there were between the BRZ and the Clio in the Evo review - but the Clio won the drive-off. And there seems to be (based on those early reviews) a reasonable chance the MK7 will be as good as the Clio.

Ironically, the weakness of the MK7 from Evo's perspective may turn out to be the same as the BRZ's - it's so highly capable and stable that it is a bit boring to drive at anything less than balls-to-the-wall pace. At least it would be a more comfortable, relaxing, and refined boredom! But then again it won't have that torque deficit Evo complained about in the BRZ, so its greater power out of turns will be an advantage... definitely not the car for the drift crowd of course.
I guess I'm less confident than you that a GTI with an eLSD and more neutral handling setup will suddenly be comparable to an FR-S/BRZ. The Golf platform (even the new MQB) has too many inherent disadvantages to overcome -- overall weight, weight distribution, CG height, FWD layout, but I suppose only time will tell.

BTW I wouldn't put too much faith in Evo magazine coming out with an unbiased review of the twins. Every Evo review I've seen has been biased since they flubbed that initial review of the auto-tranny BRZ.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:00 PM   #207
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^ Depends what you mean by comparable - they are never going to feel the same to the driver, as I stated in that post, but that does not mean the MK7 might not be as good or better as a driver's car, just in a different way - much as the Megane was found to be.

The Evo bias argument I find questionable - nobody here complains about rave reviews of the twins being biased. If anything Evo's bias going in favoured RWD cars - they were very surprised that the FWD Megane drove better. So I don't really think Evo has an axe to grind - it's just their perspective has been shaped by driving boatloads of very high-performance cars, very hard, on an almost-daily basis. So it's partly that they are jaded, and partly that their collective driving skill level is so far above the average driver's that what excites them is a car that has a much higher threshold of challenge or difficulty than the twins do. It's more engaging for them to master a high-threshold car, whereas for the average driver it may be more of a PITA to deal with, or even a deathtrap.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:36 PM   #208
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^ Depends what you mean by comparable - they are never going to feel the same to the driver, as I stated in that post, but that does not mean the MK7 might not be as good or better as a driver's car, just in a different way - much as the Clio was found to be.
So this was actually my point when I said it wouldn't be like a BRZ with 100 lbs/ft more torque. I can't tell if that's your BRZ in your picture, but if you're thinking of switching to a GTI and expecting it to basically be like your BRZ with more torque, you'll be sorely disappointed IMO. Two different classes of cars, one being a lightweight RWD sports car and the other being a heavier FWD hot hatch. Ford (and now VW) are clearly striving for their new hot hatches to handle more like lightweight RWD sports cars, but obviously they're fighting the laws of physics.

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The Evo bias argument I find questionable - nobody here complains about rave reviews of the twins being biased. I don't really think Evo has an axe to grind - it's just their perspective has been shaped by driving boatloads of very high-performance cars, very hard, on an almost-daily basis. So it's partly that they are jaded, and partly that their collective driving skill level is so far above the average driver's that what excites them is a car that has a much higher threshold of challenge or difficulty than the twins do. It's more engaging for them to master a high-threshold car, whereas for the average driver it may be more of a PITA to deal with, or even a deathtrap.
Don't you find it odd that Evo trashed the BRZ-auto in their initial review, basically saying they couldn't get the rear end to rotate and come out to play, when in reality, the rear rotates just fine? Every other reviewer has basically stated and demonstrated that, including Harris who btw loves the twins (and I believe is former Evo). Evo later tried to backtrack with a more positive review of a GT86 manual, saying that the manual tranny and the GT86 suspension tuning made an enormous difference, but you can tell they're worried about preserving the credibility of that initial BRZ bashing they did.

BTW, I don't think there's much credibility to the argument that the staff of Evo are simply better drivers than everyone else. I can guarantee you Randy Pobst (former 4x SCCA World Challenge GT champ) and Jonathan Palmer (F1/LeMans/BTCC driver) have more experience with fast cars than the entire Evo staff combined, and both loved the twins. So the better drivers thing doesn't really explain the Evo bias either.

Pobst
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...s/viewall.html

Palmer
http://i.imgur.com/X00RR.jpg
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:01 PM   #209
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BTW I should add Harris is a hell of a driver in his own right with fair amount of experience driving fast cars. He's got a couple of good videos explaining why he loves the GT86. One of the reasons is the ability for the rear end to rotate under power, again casting doubt on Evo's credibility in their initial BRZ review:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4"]Toyota GT86 / Scion FR-S v Nissan 370Z v Used Porsche Cayman S - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=romf-G6CZ7g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=romf-G6CZ7g[/ame]
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:25 PM   #210
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was this posted yet? It seems appropriate.

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