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Old 04-27-2016, 03:49 AM   #85
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yep mate I've gone to the 98 side, I'm just wondering if the seller matters because "Coles Shell" sells 98 for $1.30+ around here but I can go down to 7/11 or United for $1.15+ for the same octane...
Always BP Ultimate for me.

I used to use Shell Optimax, but I've found (maybe placebo) that I getter better fuel economy from BP Ultimate, and it's praised by so many car guys.
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Old 04-27-2016, 04:28 AM   #86
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Always BP Ultimate for me.

I used to use Shell Optimax, but I've found (maybe placebo) that I getter better fuel economy from BP Ultimate, and it's praised by so many car guys.
Caltex 98 for all bar two fill ups and those two were from a Shell servo in Canberra. Wow now that I think about it I've only filled up from one of two specific petrol stations over the entire life of the car.

No hiccups or crickets yet. I would never consider any other grade of fuel unless I was tuned for it like E85 for example.
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Old 04-27-2016, 11:06 AM   #87
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Always BP Ultimate for me.

I used to use Shell Optimax, but I've found (maybe placebo) that I getter better fuel economy from BP Ultimate, and it's praised by so many car guys.
it's cheaper than shell here in east Melb
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:53 PM   #88
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the air intake snorkel is up top

Good to know, I heard they put them very low in some cars, and it's very easy to destroy the engine when driving thorughh even modest amount of water.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:32 AM   #89
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@CatScan

First off I want to apologize if I came off as angry or insincere I had no intention of doing that. I was off from work today so I did some some data logging and bit the bullet and ran 87 octane for research purposes.


1) My comment of the IAM dropping to zero was in response to your brain exploding all over your keyboard to these dangerous posts:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=18

The comments you made are quoted and that was what got me riled up so I surmised that you believe it was safe to run a tune for E85 and run 87 octane in it, as well as run 87 in a 91 or 93 octane tune. In fact the way you were typing it out in an unclear fashion made it seem you did it constantly.

Also this comment:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=28

"Pull the plugs back a bit to lower compression"

I wasn't sure if you were joking or being serious or why you decided it'd be genius to post a picture of an Openflash tablet as an end all comment? You also said "Strange how well the car runs on E85. And for 87" it doesn't run well that's the mistake.

I then commented on a "Bought New car..." thread because you began to suggest it was alright to running incorrect octane fuels with tunes to a new owner looking to start modding:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=58

I said the IAMs would eventually reach 0 which I have seen on forum posts that I posted on your freak out posts telling me to "show some f***ing proof". You then "hyperbolized" what I said into that it would "DESTROY" a new engine:


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=59

Bottom line you were talking about running a tune and using 87 octane or running e85 and running 87 octane so that's how my logs are done, plus you seem to take things a bit too far on this forum anyway.

Here’s the walkthrough of my logs I'm running an OFH tune and 93 octane all the time with my CNT uel.
Also with UELs I can't run anything else other than a tune otherwise I'll get a P0420 error. Now, of course you can always flash back to the OEM tune in times of dire need but someone else can check what the data logs read for that. I have a feeling with the OEM tune IAM will drop to .70 as was seen in some posts in the software tuning section, it get worse than what I achieved today of the 0 after repeated pulls.

Here is what the logs normally look like on a good day with 93 octane on the new OFH tunes on my AT ZA1JD00D:
http://datazap.me/u/frsbrzgt86fan/co...&data=1-2-8-10

Notice I had almost 0 knock correction except for the slight OFT glitch or something that went -.32 and my IAM stayed at 1 so it should be like that all the time and it looks like the CNT UELs are a good candidate for the OFH specific tunes.
The time in NJ I wasn't actually data logging but looking at the tablet and saw it jump to places like -.72 or -.8 in the kc and the IAM stuck at .87 and jumping around at that.

After being low on gas I filled half my tank up today with 87 octane for a whopping 2.39 a gallon!! This was a giant gas station at a local road called "2nd street Pike", I chose there specifically due to the fact I wanted a long straight road I could do pulls, but I didn't remember that morning rush traffic would get in the way. So I did some pulls up and down that road till I got to 3/4 of the tank and parked in a grocery store and turned the car off and got my Openflash tablet out.

http://datazap.me/u/frsbrzgt86fan/te...ata=1-2-5-9-12

That's what I data logged before the first rest, for some reason the IAMs started at .25 then increased to .9, I also only really got any knock correction at .7 IAM at -.69 degrees puttering through traffic. So I stopped the car and pulled over waited a couple seconds with the car off and OFT unplugged and plugged it back in and started the car and did another pull at around 1/4 of a tank left:

http://datazap.me/u/frsbrzgt86fan/te...a=1-2-5-6-9-12

I was starting to get .5 IAM then it would start rising again all the way up to .93 at the 10 minute mark and I got a bunch of small knock corrections. I then did the same process of stopping the car on the side of the road after going the opposite direction and letting the car sit for a few minutes while I check some text messages. I then did my final 20 minute pull:

http://datazap.me/u/frsbrzgt86fan/te...a=1-2-5-8-9-12

My IAMs reached 0 and I started to get some lean AFRS higher than 14:1 and not on overrun, THIS IS WHAT I MEANT BY IAM REACHING 0, it actually felt the most sluggish on this pull and flkc started to get much more negative.

Take it for what you will, but this is what I meant and you blew things out of proportion and unnecessarily, for me at least here in suburban PA, 87 octane may be of such low quality it causes the IAMs to skitter around and drop and for me to get engine pinging and unusual flkc. Long term this will definitely do some sort of wear, as you described there’s a stretch of your commute where you run 87 octane with the tune repeatedly, if you run the OEM tune feel free to data log as that is much safer than what I did. You're IAM, flkc and knock correction may be more aggressive at the start but remember its correcting AFTER a knock event occurs so there is some sort of pinging occurring for it to try and counter and it may drop to .6 or .7 but that's still pretty bad, and it doesn’t run “fine” or “as good as other octanes” and it’s not “A lawyer making the decision regarding octane, not an engineer." it's legitimately engineers making coherent decisions programming a tune into the ecu that works for a high compression engine with 4 injectors per cylinder. Also if I had pushed it harder like to pass someone I would've totally gotten the engine to knock even more.
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:14 AM   #90
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Please provide source for this. I am very curious as to who made this "rule".
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Premium is required, but it will run on 87, as will all cars that require premium, if it HAS TO, like in an emerg situation, like if you in the middle of a nowhere gas stop and all they have is 87. The computer will adjust the timing to accommodate the 87, but, BUT, it will run like crap, have less power and get WORSE mileage. The money you think you're saving by putting in 87 gets eaten up right away in getting less per mile so you're not saving a damn thing and potentially costing yourself more in the long run if you run 87 regularly.

If putting 91 or higher is a problem for people, them why even but the damn car? These kind of people remind me of the old quote "...those that know the price of everything, and the value of nothing."
unfortunately this is true, it will go on 87, heck put in 85 and it will still go.
Just ask yourself which petrol engine in the world does not run on 87??
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:26 AM   #91
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all engines must be designed to run on 87 octane, 2L boxer engine is no different. using 87 octane will do no harm, because it's the rule. The manual says a lot of things to lower the liability of the manufacturer such as touchless wash only, wash after driven on salty road every time, don't mod your car... you get the point
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unfortunately this is true, it will go on 87, heck put in 85 and it will still go.
Just ask yourself which petrol engine in the world does not run on 87??
You have a total misunderstanding of something. There is no "rule" that they "must be able" to run on 87.
The manual does not say 91 minimum for "liability" reasons.
These are very high compression engines and need the knock resistance provided by higher octane fuel. This is not a matter of opinion or speculation but an engineering fact.
There are many older high compression engines that if you try to run 87 through them they will destroy themselves is no time since they do not have the ability to detect knock and adjust for it.
Being "able" to run on it and should be run on it are not the same thing.


You still have not provided the requested proof that there is a rule that engines must be designed to run on 87.
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:34 AM   #92
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unfortunately this is true, it will go on 87, heck put in 85 and it will still go.
Just ask yourself which petrol engine in the world does not run on 87??
I gave you an example the 07-10 shelby gt500s they have no knock sensor they may run but the engine will sputter and knock itself to death.

Also that's an efi car look for carbed vehicles like converted lsx and blueprint crate engines and you have a serious problem running under 91 octane
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:35 AM   #93
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You have a total misunderstanding of something. There is no "rule" that they "must be able" to run on 87.
The manual does not say 91 minimum for "liability" reasons.
These are very high compression engines and need the knock resistance provided by higher octane fuel. This is not a matter of opinion or speculation but an engineering fact.
There are many older high compression engines that if you try to run 87 through them they will destroy themselves is no time since they do not have the ability to detect knock and adjust for it.
Being "able" to run on it and should be run on it are not the same thing.


You still have not provided the requested proof that there is a rule that engines must be designed to run on 87.
It's as much of a rule as all bicycles must be designed to have 2 wheels ok?

Guys you are taking this octane thing way too seriously. Of course i am not recommending to always use 87. What I am saying is that your car will be fine using 87 with very minimal physical damage to the engine because of modern technology.

At the end of the day, there are tons of Mercedes ML350 owners putting 87 in their 12:1 compression engines without problems.

Consistently red lining your engine will do more harm over time, let's just leave it as that.
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:38 AM   #94
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It's as much of a rule as all bicycles must be designed to have 2 wheels ok?

Guys you are taking this octane thing way too seriously. Of course i am not recommending to always use 87. What I am saying is that your car will be fine using 87 with very minimal physical damage to the engine because of modern technology.

At the end of the day, there are tons of Mercedes ML350 owners putting 87 in their 12:1 compression engines without problems.

Consistently red lining your engine will do more harm over time, let's just leave it as that.
That's no proof you won't be able to find any proof it doesn't exist you made it up


Those engines can't be compared to a boxer with completely different characteristics, cylinder material ring material etc.

Knock can kill an engine and do lots of wear especially when it's specifically recommended by a manufacturer and you ignore it. Also what ml350 are you talking about? The gas motor has 10.7:1 compression I believe
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:41 AM   #95
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I gave you an example the 07-10 shelby gt500s they have no knock sensor they may run but the engine will sputter and knock itself to death.

Also that's an efi car look for carbed vehicles like converted lsx and blueprint crate engines and you have a serious problem running under 91 octane
I guess thats why 2011 gt500s got knock sensors
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:50 AM   #96
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I guess thats why 2011 gt500s got knock sensors
They still knock dangerously on the stock tune with anything under 91 if you get into boost. Higher Octane is required in cars with high compression because under high compression the lower octane fuel will combust before TDC, this is "knock"(our FA20). In order for the car to adjust for itthe knock has to occur and it has to adjust and attempt to predict it after the knock occurs for the next knock. That is where the extra wear will occur, in fact it happened to people's di seals in early tunes and FA20s.


However, the GT500s have pretty low compression due to the super charger (I think its less than 9:1). They require high octane because of the supercharger. As long as the sc is not putting boost into the engine, the compression of air should be the factory 9.1:1; this does not require special fuel. But when the boost is applied, even slight throttle, you end up with 16-18psi sitting in the chamber at BDC Bottom dead center
then you compress it by 8.4:1, and you end up with a really high pressure - this requires high octane so it doesn't ignite itself too early. This is a similar issue to the FRS.

The sheer higher compression can cause the pre-ignition, engines with similar compression like skyactiv and such got away with lower octane by cooling exhaust gases quickly and such but the result is less power. The FRS however has some equal length headers and 4 injectors per cylinder etc etc to get us that 200 hp or 100hp per liter...
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:55 AM   #97
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It's as much of a rule as all bicycles must be designed to have 2 wheels ok?

Guys you are taking this octane thing way too seriously. Of course i am not recommending to always use 87. What I am saying is that your car will be fine using 87 with very minimal physical damage to the engine because of modern technology.

At the end of the day, there are tons of Mercedes ML350 owners putting 87 in their 12:1 compression engines without problems.

Consistently red lining your engine will do more harm over time, let's just leave it as that.
The bolded I agree with 100%.
The rest of it is bunk.
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:03 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
You have a total misunderstanding of something. There is no "rule" that they "must be able" to run on 87.
The manual does not say 91 minimum for "liability" reasons.
These are very high compression engines and need the knock resistance provided by higher octane fuel. This is not a matter of opinion or speculation but an engineering fact.
There are many older high compression engines that if you try to run 87 through them they will destroy themselves is no time since they do not have the ability to detect knock and adjust for it.
Being "able" to run on it and should be run on it are not the same thing.


You still have not provided the requested proof that there is a rule that engines must be designed to run on 87.
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